Episode Transcript
[00:00:02] Speaker A: So welcome, everyone, to this episode of Unlocking your People. Today we are talking about the wonderful world of psychological safety. And I'm thrilled to be joined by Sean Kennedy. Sean is the co founder of an organization called SethMinds, which is focused on psychological safety in the workplace. And it's an organization that builds assessment tools to help you assess the level of psychological safety that you have and then kind of solutions for how you improve psychological safety in the workplace. So he's going to come along and chat to us about what it is and his views of the world and have some conversation with me about how we help make mental health something that we think about at work as much as we think about regular health. So that's the plan for today, and then we'll have our regular Just Ask yes segment.
So over to me and Sean, and let's see what he has to say. So, Sean, thanks so much for joining me here today. I'm super excited for you to have the conversation with me about psychological safety, which I know is your wheelhouse. So before we get into all of that, do you want to just tell folks a little bit about you and your background and how you came to do what you do?
Sure.
[00:01:05] Speaker B: And thanks again, Jess. It's really great to be on your podcast and have this chat with you.
Anyone who gives me the chance to talk about psychological health and safety and mental health, I'm usually more than happy to oblige. So thank you.
I think, you know, for our listeners, it's important to understand my background and why this is such a topic for me.
And it really, I mean, it doesn't go back all that far. Like most of us, during the pandemic, I got hit hard with something, and at the time, I didn't know what it was.
I just knew that I got hit and it didn't feel normal and things were deteriorating.
So, of course, I set out to.
To do the things that a lot of us did during that time to seek help. And then about a year later, I was diagnosed with ADHD at 36.
[00:02:08] Speaker A: And.
[00:02:08] Speaker B: That was an interesting experience. I took on the medications, the treatments, and about two and a half years later, we actually determined that I do not have adhd and I should not have been diagnosed with adhd.
So that's when I got involved with the Canadian Mental Health association, and that's when I really started to learn about what was happening.
At a population level. Sure. But absolutely. Within our workplaces and the conversations that I got to be a part of, it just became so clear that we have to start figuring out ways to do more to improve these, these environments that we're all part of.
So with that, I also started an organization called firstline Vitality. It's a charity based on helping doctors prescribe exercise as a treatment for depression. And in my professional life, in addition to SethMind, I help small companies, nonprofits, and tech companies in the areas of business development, sales and marketing and whatnot. And of course, there's always a lens on psychological health and safety in those, in those agreements. And then I guess the last thing that I want people to know about me is I'm proud dad, very lucky husband.
And I spend most of my time in, in hockey rinks.
[00:03:33] Speaker A: Like, I can't join you in the hockey rink. One that's not my, my cup of tea or the field hockey, maybe more than ice hockey. I love that you're willing to tell the story because I do think still, sadly, we have stigma associated with mental health and even talking about mental health. And I think it's getting better. I do, I think there's, there's improvement. And I suffered a period of depression in my early 20s and for a long time I would never have considered talking about that. Certainly not putting it out there on a podcast or any of those things. So it's certainly definitely moving. But I still not sure that we're having the conversations that we need to be having around mental preventative mental health. Right. We seem to still talk about mental health when there becomes a challenge for somebody or they're facing a difficult period, as opposed to how do we generally promote wellbeing, mental well being in the same way as we've come to promote physical well being and at work, it's still one of those conversations that people are like, how do I have this conversation? What do I say? Do I tell my boss if I'm having a challenge? Do I not tell my boss if I'm having a challenge? So I think for me, the more conversations we have about this, the better. The more we lift the lid on having conversations and normalize having conversations about mental health, the better. And Covid is a whole other level of trauma response that we probably won't get massively into today. But to think that that's gone away is a misnomer. Right? Like, people are still dealing with COVID and still dealing with the aftermaths of COVID and how we felt during that period. So really glad that you're having the conversation and kind of thrilled that you're started Seph mine, because I'm fascinated To see where that goes, like what we're able to kind of accomplish in that space and support more organizations and thinking about creating workplaces where mental health and wellbeing is kind of core to how we function. We've got like oh and s so ingrained in making sure like we don't do slips, trips and falls. Like there's process, safety, all those things. I don't feel like we're there yet on the mental health side of stuff. So there's still kind of room to maneuver, I think.
[00:05:27] Speaker B: I couldn't agree more. There's a lot of room to maneuver, but it's natural and it is moving and we're seeing some of that progress.
And I'm kind of excited actually for the next several years to take place because I think we will see a big improvement.
[00:05:45] Speaker A: I certainly hope so.
For those listeners who are kind of scratching their heads a little bit about what on earth are they talking about? The psychological safety. Can you just define that from your perspective, everybody? I can put it into kind of layman's terms so we all know we're talking about the same thing.
[00:06:00] Speaker B: So specifically when we talk about safety, psychological safety in the workplace, we're talking about 13 psychosocial factors that need to be understood, measured, addressed and continuously monitored in order to fully understand what psychological safety means. And just for the listeners to understand without listing all 13.
They include things like civility and respect in your workplace, the level of engagement that you have as an employee, what your growth and development plan might look like, how involved or how much you can influence the type of work you do all the way to how are you recognized and rewarded for that work, just to name a few. To put some parameters around what the whole conversation looks like.
[00:06:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
Earlier in the series I had a guest on Pierre Batter, who does work in human workplaces, humanity at work and kind of employee engagement, does leadership coaching and other things as well. But our conversation was very much focused on the employee engagement side of things and how do we improve leaders ability to engage their teams and to build people and those things. And for me, they're very much intertwined. So we do work in respectful workplace. We do work in kind of anti bullying, harassment, those types of things. And I think about creating that culture or that workplace where not only am I free from major stressors now let's be clear. You can't remove stress from work. They're two different things, but not the trigger points that are going to massively affect me.
[00:07:34] Speaker B: And also.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: But I'm also good at work well, yes, we need a little bit of pressure, if the brain needs a little bit of pressure to get out of bed in the morning.
But we also want to be able to speak our minds and be comfortable to be ourselves and those types of things. And for me, it's almost as if that is a foundation to higher level engagement. And I would remember looking at there's a continuum that was created and again, I can't remember, I'm terrible at remembering who created things. But there was a continuum that looked at kind of bullying and harassment in the workplace. And the fact that incivility and some of these other factors you're talking about are almost the start point, the thin end of the wedge. And if we're not focusing on those things and we're not talking about what do we mean by politeness and respect and civility and that kind of cultural attributes of the workplace, we're on a path to more significant issues around bullying and harassment. So for me, that is kind of like, if we're trying to get to those higher levels of employee engagement, we really need to start thinking about psychological safety first. From your perspective, how do you kind of get a sense of that? Right. Partly challenging for leadership to. I mean, we know the higher up you go, the less people want to tell you the truth. No one's going to wander up to the CEO and go, by the way, excuse me, you have some cultural problems here. I mean, they might if you're very lucky. But it's a very challenging thing for people to do. So how, if I am a senior leader in an organization or if I'm a leader of a team, how do I get that sense of, of the psychological safety that I might be creating or the things that I might be doing in the organization that do or don't help?
[00:08:57] Speaker B: To do an assessment to understand what's happening inside your organization is really the easy part.
What we're trying to find, what we're looking for has been outlined.
Our ability to find the information that falls under the 13 psychosocial factors that are outlined by ISO 4533 and in the Canadian. The CSA National Standard is right in front of us. It exists in tools that we have without doing a survey of all the employees. We have turnover data, we have absenteeism data, we have claims EAP usage, which by the way, things like EAP usage is still considerably low. I read a news article this morning that there was a place in the US that talked about it being 38% among some organizations, as reported by some Insurance benefits companies, and then, you know, the injury or harassment complaints and incident reporting. These are all the areas and the ability we have to documentation that we already manage internally.
When we look at it with the lens of measuring the 13 psychosocial factors in addition to running an assessment via survey or employee participation survey tools like this, like CephMind, then we start to get the whole picture. And once we have the whole picture, then we start to figure out are all the solutions that we've started to employ from leadership training to expanded EAPs and employees benefits, are they doing their job? But now we can look at it with a, with a much more focused lens.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: I love that. And for those of these people listening, if they, if we didn't say it, EAP is your employee assistance program.
[00:11:00] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:11:00] Speaker A: So some people have benefit plans where there's an ability to call into an assistance program, provide support, like counselling, that kind of thing. So if you're not sure what that was, that's what we were talking about and they are becoming more commonplace. But that stat has slightly shocked me that it's only 38% because it's there for the use. But I do agree, I do concur through my experience that quite often we don't think about EFAP as a first place to start or EAP is the first place to start. And what I love about what you're saying is because sometimes when we have these types of conversations, particularly having them with the leadership who are already doing 4763 things, it feels like more, right? Oh, I gotta do more, I gotta. But if you're already collecting that data, which you probably are, if you're already doing some kind of employee engagement assessment, even, because you're probably surveying your entire company for that kind of thing, if you're already having conversations with people, you're already dealing with incidents and incident cards and all that type of stuff, you already have the data, you just need to look at it through this lens and then don't recreate the wheel. Use the same mechanisms that you currently have in place with developing people to help bring this lens to light too. I think that's a kind of really sensible way of looking at it because as soon as we make it feel like more, it becomes a chore. And that's not what we're trying to get at. Right. And also culture should be part of how you do things, not an activity. Right. So the more we bake this in, the better.
[00:12:16] Speaker B: Love it.
[00:12:18] Speaker A: One of the things I do sometimes see with this Type of thing.
And I've seen it with wellness generally is organizations really wanting to do something but not really knowing what to do. And so we end up with a spate of lunch and learns. Now I'm not denouncing lunch and learns. I think they are a fantastic mechanism for distributing information and helping building awareness. But in our world we talk about awareness and capability as two different things. Right. So awareness is, I have a general understanding and the importance of something capabilities. I can actually go and action this and kind of make a fundamental difference. And so whilst I love the idea of yes, let's do a lunch and learn, for me it's like, okay, you stuck your toe in. Now how do we kind of fully immerse the whole of you in this world? So do you have any examples or suggestions of things you've seen organizations do or things that you think could be helpful for people to consider when they're trying to move the dial on some of this?
[00:13:14] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. There's two key components that have to take place. At the top, we have to have leader support, you have to have leader buy in.
To obtain leader buy in, whether it's going to come from your health and safety folks, your HR folks or your risk management folks, you have to create a business case. Mental health leaves in the United States over the last five years are up 300%, 22% in 2024. This is unprecedented. So in addition to the metrics around what it means to have a group of employees who are of a low or suboptimal productivity, we're seeing direct costs related to claims, payout and premiums now.
So getting leadership support and buy in, it's actually incorporating more teams within the workplace. But beyond the business case, we're looking for leaders amongst the employees, whether it's middle management reps or what have you that can act from a middle management perspective.
And then we get into the lunch and learn conversation where we can start to educate and communicate and all of the tools that organizations already use to communicate to organizations about various programs, culture related and what have you. And then beyond there, that's where we educate and create the conversation.
But obtaining the leadership buy in with a very strong business case, that's the only way we're going to be able to move the conversation.
One of the key things that exist today is, and while we're seeing advancements in the legislation which is adding to the mental health claims that we're seeing, there's a resistance from leadership in a sense that knowledge can become a liability if we engage and we participate and we start to learn more about the types of risks that exist from a psychological safety perspective.
We have to act on them. We can't obtain knowledge and not do something about it.
So there's unfortunately a group of leaders out there who are going to be slower on the curve for adoption, who really just want to lag and wait for them to be told to do it.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: I mean, that's really interesting.
I love the positioning of that. Because we know, right. Anytime you're trying to drive anything in an organization, you need ownership and sponsorship. If nobody owns it, then there's nobody driving the bus. And if nobody sponsors that, you're saying it's not important. And I think that that's the piece around.
I would love being me. Inherently, every leader in the organization to go, clearly this is just the right thing to do. So we want people to feel better and not have to access support for this type of thing. What do we do? But there are financial reasons to make it make sense for people that need that kind of extra push, but that kind of group of people, I mean, I had a similar, perhaps a similar conversation about the role of diversity and equity initiatives. Right. And having a conversation about that. And I. I genuinely believe that in most cases it's not so much that people don't want to do it. It is a case of it feels really tangly. It feels like I don't really know how to address this in a meaningful way. It perhaps doesn't resonate with me personally because I'm either not feeling diversity inequity is something I need to consider, or I don't have any challenges myself. So I can't do the empathy thing and put myself in those person's shoes. So it's not resonating with me, and it feels like more.
And so I try and work on these things from a place of assuming that the people that lag are not lagging because they genuinely don't care. It's that they have four fires over here that feel like they're burning more loudly. And so I think the more that we can put a spotlight on why these things matter, that the way that we escalate the conversation, the kind of emphasis we put on it, is going to make people go, okay, maybe I do need to look at this. Maybe it is something that I need to pay attention to. And then I think it's really important that we create the tools and resources to simplify how we do it. Because I've had so many conversations through the years with leaders where they're already overloaded, there's already too much on the go, and you come along with something that's inherently a good idea, and they just sigh and they go, oh, it's one more tangly thing. And then we get frustrated because the leader goes, all right, hr, go do dib. All right, Risk management, go sort out psychological safety. And the functional leads are like, it's not my job, it's your job. It's everybody's job. But we do still need ownership. So how do we. I mean, is it just. We keep doing the things that we know work? How do we get this to be more of something on the map? Do you think ISO is part of the solution to that? Are there other things we could be doing to kind of heighten the importance of this for folks?
[00:18:04] Speaker B: I mean, from what I'm reading and what I'm following is it's trending in the right direction.
I'm confident over the next five to 10 years that we will see vast improvements.
And I think looking at the evolution of physical safety and how it evolved is really going to be a driver for psychological safety in physical safety.
You know, how many workers would have had to fall from scaffolding before there was legislation around that issue in terms of how to train, what devices would suffice, what quality control on the device itself looks like, how to use it, what it means for process, what had to take place there to get that far.
Some folks would have believed that it was the right thing to do, but other folks would have said, this is the cost of getting work done.
And I can't help but think that we're there. So on the one hand, I know that there are a lot of organizations and a lot of great people who are encouraging the right conversation around the environment and what it means. But I also know that there's a reality out there where there's going to be a lot of organizations who are going to wait until it's too late and they have to do it.
[00:19:34] Speaker A: So somewhat hopeful, listening to you, that there might be a driver in the current state of the talent market, because people vote with their feet, right? They vote with their feet. It's consumers, and they vote with their feet as employees.
And if we do have people who are creating, I mean, we see it, we see it now with great culture, great workplaces, they attract the people. Right now, it's hard to find people. And based on the latest Gallup statistics, 50% of the North America is looking for another job. So they're going to migrate to the places where they have those opportunities and where the culture is one that recognizes the reality of living in today's world and the stresses that we all have. And, and that mental well being is an important part of being a valued, productive human. So there might be something in kind of how we are functioning kind of from a talent perspective that helps increase the emphasis on that. That's maybe, that's maybe a hope for me, but that's definitely there. And then I'd say, I think the reality is with any organizational change of any kind of corporations are there to make money. We're still, we're corporately financially driven. Even me, like small business, I am. But I've got to pay the rent, pay the bills, keep everybody's salary going. And so I don't think we should shy away from having the cost conversation because the statistics do show the financial benefits of it. And if we wag our finger and say you shouldn't be worried about money, well then nobody would ever run a business because we all run businesses and have to think and have to think about money, even if money is not our primary driver. So I think if we can get more people to know some of the statistics you're talking about and look at the data you're talking about, that's also tangible information for people too. Right? So I think between the data and the way the world is moving, we might be able to get more impetus and focus on these things. If we can paint that business case that you were talking about earlier, it's.
[00:21:21] Speaker B: There and it's possible.
I was outside last night playing street hockey with my kid and I ran off the sidewalk and I'm getting, you know, I'm not a spring chicken anymore, so things happen.
So I tweaked my ankle a little bit. But if you twist your ankle, you know generally what is going to happen beyond that that is non existent when it comes to mental health. So the ability to recognize internally across our population, across all the segments, is lacking.
And I truly believe that the workforce is the place where we can inflict the largest impact systemically. Because our workforce are children, they are parents, they are grandparents, in some cases their great grandparents or great grandchildren.
So if we're developing these conversations at work, then they're going to naturally develop and help our senior populations and our youth populations at the same time. But this is exactly how it happens.
So somebody steps back, we have a successful business case and we're going to do this. It's going to happen.
Everyone's on board Risk management, hr, health and safety. We're doing it and we start with an assessment to figure these things out. Where do we sit across all the 13 psychosocial factors? What risks do that present?
And then we get to that conversation. It's like, wow, there's some leadership issues here. There's any number of hazards that have popped up through the assessment. Now what do we do?
This is it.
The training that can take place. There's a multitude of training and I realize who I'm speaking to. This is your world for helping leaders understand these types of things and the people that work under them.
So that buy in that comes with that push, then that education piece happens. That's a ripple effect that is far bigger than any workplace organizational discussion.
It's population wide and it's going to have a positive impact at work, hopefully, because that's where it all took place. But just think about how far that's going to spread.
[00:23:53] Speaker A: So I'm going to ask you if you could leave us with, if you could give everybody one practical tip, one suggestion of what you would like, what you suggest they go do to move the dial on this, what would it be?
[00:24:06] Speaker B: I really want people to learn about the 13 psychosocial factors.
And just the first step. No, there's no, you know, there's no pressure to, I mean there's some pressure but just go learn about them and think about them because when you see them you will start to associate. Well, you know, we kind of focus on this, we've talked about this, we have policies to help us with this.
But think about them as a whole and what it means to see them together, to meet a new standard.
Just do that.
If we do that, we'll start to move the needle because then we'll start to have those conversations when they need to have when we need to have them.
And I think that's really what the.
[00:24:58] Speaker A: First step is, what you focus on, you get more of. So go learn about it so you can think about it. When we think about it, we talk about it. When we talk about it, we do something about it. Love it. Brilliant.
Thank you so much for taking the time to join us today and for sharing what's clearly a passion for you as well as a vocation. So thank you very much.
Some really great nuggets in there and I hope that we can continue to advance the conversation and the agenda in workplaces and I look forward to doing more with you and Sethmind in that space.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: Great. Thank you so much, Jess.
[00:25:28] Speaker A: So that's a wrap on our conversation with Sean, and I don't know about you, but for me, one of the biggest takeaways I have of that conversation is how much opportunity we have to make work a place that's great for everybody, that we're driving that change now, but we need to really keep our foot on the pedal. So hopefully you're with me on that one and we can all create workplaces where there's no need for anyone to have have fear of reprisal, humiliation or punishment, because that really doesn't serve anybody well in the world of work.
Now with that done, let's move over to just ask Jess and see what scenarios you have in store for me today.
Hit me with a question.
This week's question.
One of my team members is brilliant technically, but awful when it comes to working with others.
They shoot down ideas in meetings and don't seem to notice how they come across.
How do you coach someone like that without making them defensive?
Without making them defensive. Thing I might need to come to afterwards. Okay, There's a lot in that question. So what we're really talking about the number that self awareness, right? So back to how do I coach that person to understand their impact?
So in the E3 world, we talk about intention versus impact.
So nobody, we work on the principle, nobody gets out of bed in the morning and says, I'm going to go to work today and be an asshole. Right now they might be right, but that wasn't probably what they were doing and they probably weren't getting out of bed going, you know what, I'm going to go to work today and I'm going to irritate people or ruin Roz's day or anything like that. And now sometimes people challenge me on that. And I will say, I have met maybe two people over the course of my career who were kind of annoying people and enjoying it. But for the most part, most of us are doing things that in our head seem eminently sensible. And then there's kind of a knock on effect or an impact afterwards, right? So this person is doing things that are unhelpful in their head. There is a reason why they are doing it, right? What they're not thinking about is the impact of the action that they are choosing to take. So just read me back there, what's the person doing? They're not good with people. And what are they doing? They shoot down ideas in meetings. Okay. And don't seem to notice how they come across. Okay. So other people are chipping in and they're like that's stupid. Or whatever. So probably in their head, they're not thinking about how someone else might feel by them shooting them down. They're probably thinking about, how do we make this the best possible solution? Or you're going off topic, or that's not relevant to the conversation at hand. Or, we've done that before and it never worked. They're not thinking like, oh, I best not hurt Susan's feelings. They're just, why is that a bad idea? And so there's nothing wrong with wanting to ensure solutions are good and well rounded and everything else. They're not thinking about the impact piece.
So when we sit down with them, it's a feedback conversation first. Before you start to coach, to say, here's what I saw this morning. Like, when you were in the meeting this morning, I noticed that every time Susan piped up with an idea, you'd kind of cut her off and, like, cut her off at the knees. Talk to me about that. Or you'd shut down her ideas. Like, I'm very colloquial, so I use a lot of, like, slangy stuff when I talk to people. But you, you know, you shoot down her ideas. Talk to me about that. And that person's gonna say, like, well, you know, she's always picking stuff out of left fields, never gonna work, or whatever it is in their heads that tells you the intention behind what they were trying to do. And if you want them to not be defensive, you want to validate the intention. So you say, okay, so this was about trying to make sure we got the best solutions on the table. Well, I do appreciate that because I really like making sure what we do is great and rigorous and everything else that's really good. Right. So you're saying, I understand what you were trying to do.
That makes sense to me. So you're not an idiot. I get it. And I'm on side with you.
Then you explain why their choice of action to accomplish that was unhelpful.
Right, So I totally get what you were trying to do was get regular solutions. But when you cut Susan off, she shuts down, and then she stops sharing ideas. And we're not actually getting the best out of everybody around the table or getting all the ideas out. And just because we didn't like these ideas doesn't mean she won't have a great one in the future. And I don't want her to be put off with sharing that later.
Right.
So how could we manage this the next time around? That we manage the rigor of the ideas without trying to shooting people's ideas down when they give them. What do you want to try so we don't tell them to stop doing something, because that's actually really hard for people. Maybe talk about that in a whole other episode.
But you're trying to say, I don't. I saw you do this. Talk to me about why you did this. Your why is usually sensible. I very rarely come across anyone whose why didn't make sense. Right. Their why was sensible, but their action was not. Here's the impact you had. How do we achieve your intention without having that impact?
And in the E3 world, we have that wrapped up as a model called Nicer, where it's notice the behavior, ask about the intent, explain the consequences, explore a way forwards, and then reset for the next time around. Right. So it's a kind of framework model. So I mean, that's in some of our courses. If you're interested in doing more about that or you can buy our framework cards. It's in there.
That's genius. I could see that being super helpful, just even in things that I deal with on the day to day. So thanks for that, Jess. Well, it's the. It's the noticing bit. So there's a probably three nuggets I want to be really clear on. So one is noticing behavior, not judgment. Right. So why were you so rude to Susan this morning? I mean, most of us know that positioning is not going to help, but that's judgment. Right. I saw your behavior, and I've decided you're rude. But if I talk to you about being rude, you're going to get defensive because in your head, you weren't rude, you were being rigorous or whatever it was you were doing. Doing. Right. And that's how we get here. So noticing the behavior. So I noticed that when Susan was talking, you would cut her off.
That's an observation. Which feels less spiky than talking to you about the judgment of your behavior. So that's the first thing to try and do.
Back to an observation. And that can be hard, especially if it's someone who's pissed you off. Right. If you're the one who's annoyed because you're feeling emotional, you tend to go to judgment. So being able to wind back and say, this is what I saw you do. Can you talk to me about this? Then it's really important to validate intent because that's what keeps it non defensive. If you're saying, okay, that's what you were trying to do, I get that. That makes actually, that makes a lot of sense to me. Then that person's going, oh, good, we're still on the same page. Everything's fine. You're not criticizing me. We're talking about a thing I did. And then you're explaining consequences in a way they care about.
Because sometimes I'll see things like, but you really hurt Susan's feelings. Well, it depends on that person's relationship with Susan, their personality type and a whole bunch of other things. Maybe they don't care. Now, everyone wants you to care about Susan, but let's be clear. People don't care, right? So in that hair in their head, that person's probably looking at you going, yeah, sure. In their head, they're thinking, I don't care about Susan. Susan's an idiot. I don't know why Susan says all those things. She says to me, she's an idiot. So unless we can explain the consequences in a way they care about, they're going to nod at you and then they're going to leave. And next time around, they're going to cut Susan off at the knees again. So picking the.
Rather than saying you hurt Susan's feelings, which the chances are this technical person is going to look at you and go in their head, I don't care.
Talking about efficiency, quality of solutions. That's what they were trying to do, Right? So we tie it back to what they were trying to do, which means they're more likely to care about it, which means they're more likely to try and do something different next time around.
It sounds like a lot, but actually it's very simple. Notice in asking intention and validated explain the consequences. And if you do it a lot, practice it. You'll build the wiring and then your brain will start doing it.
Perfect. And where can people find out more information about this?
So it's baked into a lot of the training that we do. So if you do our Elevate Leadership program, we do a whole module on giving feedback and we use the nicer framework in that module. You can also buy our framework cards. So we have a set of cards and I think I have a pack.
So any of the frameworks that we use, including nicer, are available in here. And there's a little synopsis of how to use them in the deck. Amazing. And we'll put that in the show notes for everybody after the episode goes to air. Awesome. Thanks, Jess. Thanks. So that's a wrap on today's episode. And hopefully that little Just ask Jess gave you some nuggets to think about if you're having those feedback or coaching conversations with your peers or the people around you. If you have any questions you'd like me to answer, or comments on any of our episodes or scenarios you'd like me to cover in a future episode with just Ask Jess, please send them through to contact 3ca. And of course, don't forget to follow us on Spotify itunes, or check out our previous episodes on our website at E3CA.
Next time around, I'll be joined by Anna Cook, who's going to be talking to us about about the legalities for small businesses, which is a really important thing to make sure we avoid the people pitfalls before we even get there. So I'll see you next time.
