Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: To the final episode of season two of Unlocking your people. I can't believe we're already here at the end. But don't panic. There will be a season three. It's already in the works. Roz is helping me bring together a new set of genius people and ideas for the next round of conversation. But for today, a little bit of a different episode for wrap up. Ros and I were chatting, and we decided that we're going to do a bit of a season retrospective.
And so we were thinking about some of the best bits to take away from all of the great conversations that we've had through this particular season.
And when I was sitting down and thinking about kind of putting this together, I wanted to have a kind of theme. And what seemed really sensible to me, and perhaps not to you, but really sensible to me, it's my podcast, so I get to decide, was to pick things that I thought would be really useful for anybody who's dealing with people. So these are the top five, five clips from this season that I think are relevant to you, no matter what job you do. When you're thinking about how do you make the tough people stuff easier? So let's see what everyone has to say.
So one of the key things I took away from the conversations this season was the conversation that I had with Chelsea Caldwell Posh. I can't think of anybody who is the better embodiment of kindness than Chelsea, and she has been since the very first day that I met her.
Um, but one of the things that she said within that conversation that really resonated with me was around the effort we put in to kindness and how much of a focus we put on it compared to other things that might matter in our lives. And for me, in today's world of work, we need to be more empathetic and we need to be kinder. The world is asking for more empathy and kindness, and in fact, the research shows that we're losing some of our empathy and kindness. So I really love what she has to say on the topic. So let's hear from her. I wanted one of the conversations we have on the podcast series. Amongst all of the other conversations, we're going to have to be around kindness. And I couldn't think of anybody better to come and join me and have that conversation, because ever since I have known you, that has been the epitome of how I've thought about you. So can you talk a little bit for folks about your view of kindness and how that kind of fits with work?
[00:02:11] Speaker C: Sure.
[00:02:12] Speaker D: So it wasn't something that was inherent, you know, my whole life. It wasn't something I focused on.
It was just. I want to say how I was raised, but I think when the pandemic hit, it was a moment for me where I just saw so much divisiveness.
I saw people trying their best, not acknowledging that the others they're judging are trying their best.
And I just thought, you know, if, if kindness was something that people worked on as much as they work on their six pack, their, their hairdo, their education, you know, then I felt the world would be a little better.
It just inherently would have to be. And so I'm a, I'm a true believer in effective altruism. And what that is, is I want to help, but I want to know what it matters, really focusing, doubling down on running my business better and what that entails. You know, I joined the Wallace McCain Institute in Atlantic Canada and essentially I doubled down, tripled down on trying to just be a better leader, be a better employer, be a better subcontractor, a better archaeologist, you know, better mother everything. You know, I tell my girls the most important thing they put on every morning is their attitude.
You really have to be genuine and authentic in who you are, but make the choice to put on that attitude and your view, system, your belief before you head out into the world. And so I just, I started doing that in my, in my business and started meeting people where they are as opposed to where I think they should be or I want them to be.
Started looking at people as the protagonist in their own story. Everyone's walking around the world through their own perspective and you have to acknowledge that and just always assume good intentions.
And for the most part, you can navigate any conversation through that.
[00:04:32] Speaker B: Love it.
Along with needing a world that's empathetic and kind, the one thing that we cannot escape today is uncertainty. The world is changing faster than it has ever changed before.
And in organizations, our ability to keep up with change, to be comfortable with change, and to help others be supported with change becomes a really crucial skill. And that's why I picked this second clip, which is part of my conversation with Tom Hickey from Wedgwood, where Tom was talking about the need to really support and prepare people for that uncertainty at work. I mean, you think about silly example, but like supermarket checkouts, right? There's people who are no longer having jobs because the technology has taken over the job. And whilst that is fine from a principle of people moving to more knowledge based jobs and doing more Complex work. We've still got to retrain all those people to be able to do those jobs. And that's the bit that I'm not sure we figured out yet.
[00:05:22] Speaker C: Yeah, well, everyone said that about globalization, right? Oh yeah, we're going to send off all the cheap, boring jobs off to places with lower pay and all the jobs around here will be better. But that's like to me, businesses don't behave that way because I know all the technology we put in and free up all our staff and it's does, but it never goes fully the other way to say, oh, we freed up all these staff to provide better customer service and at the same time we just invested all the money that we saved on because now we don't have people at a typewriter typing up carbon copy invoices. All those resources did not go into client facing jobs because not everybody can do a client facing job. If you haven't got the right personality and the ability to build relationships and problem solve, everybody doesn't want to do that. So if you're a really good data person, the last thing you want to do is say, oh, now I'm going to be client facing. I hate that. So just, you know, just to make those assumptions. It's great for the people selling the technology, but what really happens is there's a big cost push down.
And so a lot of the savings that we felt we could put into client service in our business, insurance companies pushed all that work just down onto us. So yeah, we got rid of all that work and now we just have more other things to do which aren't necessarily value added. So because they're on a quest to lower their costs and you know, drive shareholder value. So all these things are like, you know, it takes a long time to shape out. But I'm always very skeptical when someone says, oh, you know, people won't be replaced by AI, they'll be replaced by people who know how to use AI. Well, not everybody is going to want to use the AI, nor should they will they want to be in jobs where that is. So, you know, I always laugh at those things because you can't minimize a disruption. You got to be honest with people, you know, and tell them what's coming and if there's skill ups they can do that will help.
Tell them that like, and it's no good telling them after you've got AI. You got to tell them a few years ahead of time say this is coming, you know, and that's what we've been trying to do in our business.
[00:07:37] Speaker B: When you're thinking about working effectively with other people, one of the things that is really important, I think, is clarity of expectations. And there were two conversations this season that really brought that forward from my perspective. One was a conversation with Jeff McAloon and how he works with his brother as co CEOs of their business. Smart energy.
[00:07:55] Speaker A: I feel really lucky to work with my brother and, you know, sharing in all of the ups and downs that come with being an entrepreneur that you know all too well.
So I guess, you know, without boring youth, a lot of history. You know, Mark and I have been. Mark's four years younger, but we've been very close through all of our professional careers. And so as I was looking at my next chapter, you know, Mark, you know, really gave me some respectful space, but also made it very clear that he would love to do something together.
So, you know, obviously I knew a lot about his business.
But before we even talked about becoming partners, you know, all the formal stuff and the legal stuff and shareholder agreements and all that stuff, you know, we both agreed that first and foremost, the most important thing is our friendship and our love as brothers.
And we really do. Like, you'll, you know, you'll meet Mark one day and you realize we both wear our heart and sleeve. We're not afraid of saying that we love each other. There's hardly a day that goes by we don't hug each other, to be honest. Like, we're just that kind of family. We're very close.
So that relationship and that respect and trust that we have each other is absolutely paramount.
And whatever we might do as entrepreneurs together, that could never, that was never on the table as a possible risk.
[00:09:06] Speaker B: Right.
[00:09:06] Speaker A: So we spent a lot of time talking about what does that mean. We actually hired an executive coach to help us through those conversations.
Dave Vale, our coach at the time, was just so instrumental in helping us formalize on paper what, how that, how those interactions could work or what might happen if it doesn't work very well. So this might sound kind of silly, but for us it really works. So we created a psychological agreement so that it's, I mean, it's not. It's a contract. We both wrote it and signed it, and it's not something we'd ever stand up in court, but it's an agreement between us that talks about, you know, what are the things that we're excited about, what are the things we're nervous about, what do we. Because we're both very different people, very different backgrounds, very different approaches. So what concerns do we have working with each other when there's conflict? How do we resolve that? How do we, how do we deal with that in a productive manner?
And so we both really feel proud about that document that we came up with. But a document is only as good as often as you look at it. Right? So we actually look at it monthly. And we have a shareholders meeting monthly where we sit down and say, okay, was there any point this last month where I was off site? Do you have any feedback for me? Here's some feedback I'd like to share.
And so it's not a once and done. It's an active process that we continually have to monitor and check.
[00:10:25] Speaker B: That's awesome. And the other was with Anna Cook when she talked about how we sort out how things are going to work from the very beginning. When you have more than one shareholder in an organization.
[00:10:35] Speaker E: Anytime that I am advising a small business where there is more than one shareholder, I will always push very, very, very strongly and very hard for a shareholders agreement. Because in my view, it's a little bit like the old expression that good fences make good neighbors.
So you want to, while everybody's getting along and before you have any problems, that's your opportunity to set the ground rules for how we're going to carry on business together.
And it deals with things like what happens when one individual wants to retire, what happens if we are ultimately not getting along and one of us has to go, what happens in the event that one individual passes away, what's going to happen to their shares? So shareholder disputes are, unfortunately, they are common. They are particularly common and more challenging in family run and family owned businesses because you've got a whole other layer dynamic on top of it. Absolutely.
So setting out at advance right at the beginning, what the rules are going to be, how we're going to govern our relationship, and what's going to happen to our shares as we move forward.
Setting that out at the beginning makes things very easy and straightforward in the event that circumstances change.
[00:11:59] Speaker B: Our very first conversation of this season was with Pierre Batter, who is a leadership coach, amongst many other wonderful things. And there were so many nuggets in what Pierre had to say. I was like, I could revisit the whole episode all over again. But the one thing that I would pull out if I was pulling anything out of that episode was around how we think about connecting with other people. And what Pierre really talked about was how engaging with others and coaching others is not about it being a separate activity. It's not about doing more, it's about how we do the things that we do. And you don't have to be a formal people leader in an organization to focus on engagement and coaching. So I really want to bring back what he had to say on that topic so everybody, everybody can be reminded about how important those things actually are. What are some of the ways that you think organizations can drive substantive change? So rather than just, yes, we did this, did the survey, and here's the playback, which I think is a good start, but actually embed change in the organization.
[00:12:56] Speaker F: Yeah.
At a bunch of levels. Right. Or organizationally, there's some outfits that are really good at projects.
And so if you need to think of this as an annual project with a beginning, a middle and an end, and that works for you because you're doing 178 other projects and that's the world you're in, then call it a project, an annual project. And if that works and that drives you, then do it. Right.
If you're more defined at the team level, for example, by the kind of practices and habits which I think are where oftentimes things really happen, then equip those leaders with what they need and then bring leaders and managers to understand that things as simple as a weekly check in with people, where you're actively creating a container as part of the artifacts of culture in your organization that says, I need to have this one to one with this individual every five to 10, 10 days and we are going to sort through the important things that we need to do that will ultimately drive that their experience is going to be better. So if that's, what, if that's a better play, then do that.
[00:14:15] Speaker B: Right.
[00:14:15] Speaker F: And, and at the individual level, I think there are some leaders and managers, aspiring, emerging and very experienced leaders and managers for whom this is a very personal kind of a thing. Right. It's. They take, they take a personal pride in their group. And my, my team, you know, my team, my group.
And, and if, if that's the button that needs to be pushed and creating some kind of accountability for what my collective group delivers in terms of results, what it's like to work here, then do that. You know, I don't think there's a single path to drive change, but I think it needs to happen probably at those three levels, organizationally, at the very team level, and then at the individual level. And I think go with what works where you.
[00:15:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
So the culture that you have. And I, you know, I did have some, I had a group session a couple of weeks back with a relatively senior leadership group and a relatively well known organization.
And they would, they were doing the. Yeah, yeah, I totally get it, Jess. But like, it's so much time. And I said, well then that's because you're doing this as more.
Right. This is not about doing more. This is about changing how you do what you do. Do all the same things you're doing. Just think about how you're doing them. Not like, if you're thinking, I gotta now have a meeting about engagement. No, you don't. Right, but how, how do we do these things? How are you actually listening when you have conversations with people? How much space. Space are you creating for the team to talk to you? Like when you have meetings, who's running the meeting? Like, just think about the smaller tweaks. And I think sometimes folks think about this as like, it's because it's an initiative. Right. It's come top down. Someone said, we've got to do engagement. Now there's. Now there's more. But it doesn't necessarily have to be more.
[00:16:08] Speaker F: You've worked with people for whom the people thing is a side of the desk experience as a leader in a manager.
[00:16:15] Speaker C: Right.
[00:16:16] Speaker F: I mean, so let's start there. No, no, this is what you do.
[00:16:19] Speaker B: This is supposed to be the job. This is supposed to be the job.
[00:16:21] Speaker A: That's right.
[00:16:23] Speaker F: The other stuff is kind of.
Not that it's side of desk, but.
[00:16:27] Speaker C: Right.
[00:16:28] Speaker F: And we've both had the pleasure of working with people who get that.
[00:16:32] Speaker A: Right.
[00:16:32] Speaker F: They just.
[00:16:34] Speaker B: And so the final clip that I wanted to shine a spotlight on was from our great conversation with Susan Engelhut, from the way buyers buy.
And Susan was talking specifically about her area of expertise, which is in sales.
[00:16:47] Speaker A: But.
[00:16:47] Speaker B: But there's a premise through all of her work that I think is a really important one when we're just thinking about connecting with people.
And she talks a lot about are you in the driver's seat or are you in the passenger seat? And that's a really great question to think about when you're collaborating with anybody in an organization. So let's see how she put that forward and what she has to say.
[00:17:05] Speaker G: People who don't know why they are successful in sales will say it is because of relationship.
And people who hear the word relationship being used with sales, like, what is it they first think of? What's the first thing they think of.
[00:17:26] Speaker B: When they say relationship with sales?
[00:17:28] Speaker G: Yeah, they say they think taking them out to dinner, a golf game, having a drink. Right. And so to love, schmoozing side of things. Schmoozing, that bit which really isn't what we love and which really isn't any of the ethos that my clients have around selling. And so I would just define that. I would define the word relationship really clearly and just say, what is relationship? In my language?
The relationship you have is with the buyer, and the buyer is the driver. You are on a road trip together. You are in the car together. There's a two seater, and so the driver's in the buying seat and you, you as the salesperson, you are in the passenger seat. So that relationship is. Your relationship is as a co pilot.
And you have been invited into their car on their road trip. So it's an interesting relationship. Like, you're not in control. It's not pushy.
But your relationship is. You're here to help them understand how to navigate this thing, which is purchasing something from you. So if that's the way we define relationship, I am totally in love with the use of relationship in selling. I think there are like, like there are different sales models that are, you know, transactional, transactional, transactional. Like if you sell a commodity, right? Transactional, transactional, transactional. But the more complex a sale gets, the more that co pilot relationship is really important. So. So if that's how we define it, I'm in love.
[00:19:05] Speaker B: So with that, that is a wrap for season two.
I honestly have had an absolute blast recording this season and I could not have done it without a number of people. So please bear with me because I'm going to do the thank yous, but the thank yous are really important. So my first thank you has to go to Roz.
So, Ros, if you're listening to this, you can pop yourself in and wave to everybody. So Ros is our marvelous producer who has made this whole process just so much easier, so much more fun than the first one. And I honestly cannot wait to do season three. So, Roz, you are an angel. I love you to pieces. Thank you to all my wonderful guests. Whether they came on to Peppermuth questions or came on to share their expertise, thank you so much for taking the time out of your very busy schedules to come and share who you are and what you do with other people. That is how we learn and grow and a really important part for me of building networks and community. So thank you all. I look forward to sharing who our guests will be with season three, and maybe we'll have some familiar faces that come back in future episodes. To all of my listeners who chimed in. Thank you so much to everybody who sent in a Just Ask Jess scenario. Please keep them coming. We need fuel for the coming seasons and if there are topics that you have on your mind, guests you'd like to hear from, or questions that you would like me to answer, send them all into contact 3ca and while you're waiting for us to come out with Season three, if you are looking for a dose of Just Ask Jess or you're looking for help, there's a couple of things that might want to look into. So obviously the podcast is out on our YouTube channel. There are also some other previous Just Ask Jess type videos there that you can connect to. We also have our Self Serve online HR Essentials toolkit. So this is aimed at small business owners who don't have HR people in their midst. And there is a Just Ask Jess, we call it AI Consultant Think Chatbot in that toolkit that you can connect with to ask your questions to.
It doesn't yet look like me, but one day it will. And of course we have a People in HR Health check. So if you're in a smaller organization, you're wondering like what? How good is my hr? How good are my people practices? Where might my pain points be that I haven't tripped over yet? What might be my blind spots? Connect with us. We can come in and have a look at everything you do and give you recommendations based on our knowledge and experience to help make sure that we help you make the tough people stuff easier.
Thank you so much for being with me on this journey this season. I look forward to having you all with me again on season three. Take care.
