Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Hit me with a question. Ross, get me this week's question.
[00:00:07] Speaker B: One of my team members is brilliant technically, but awful when it comes to working with others.
They shoot down ideas in meetings and don't seem to notice how they come across.
How do you coach someone like that without making them defensive?
[00:00:22] Speaker A: That's a good one.
Without making them defensive. Thing I might need to come to afterwards. Okay, there's a lot in that question. So what we're really talking about the number that self awareness, right? So back to how do I coach that person to understand their impact?
So in the E3 world, we talk about intention versus impact.
So nobody, we work on the principle. Nobody gets out of bed in the morning and says, I'm going to go to work today and be an asshole right now. They might be right, but that wasn't probably what they were doing and they probably weren't getting out of bed going, you know what, I'm going to go to work today and I'm going to irritate people or Ruben Roz's day or anything like that. And now sometimes people challenge me on that. And I will say I have met maybe two people over the course of my career who were kind of annoying people and enjoying it. But for the most part, most of us are doing things that in our head seem eminently sensible. And then there's kind of a knock on effect or an impact afterwards. Right? So, so this person is doing things that are unhelpful in their head. There is a reason why they are doing it, right. What they're not thinking about is the impact of the action that they are choosing to take. So just read me back there, what's the person doing? They're not good with people. And what are they doing?
[00:01:28] Speaker B: They shoot down ideas in meetings.
[00:01:31] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:01:31] Speaker B: And don't seem to notice how they come across.
[00:01:34] Speaker A: Okay? So other people are chipping in and they're like, that's stupid or whatever. So probably in their head they're not thinking about how someone else might feel by them shooting them down. They're probably thinking about how do we make this the best possible solution? Or you're going off topic or that's not relevant to the conversation at hand, or we've done that before and it never worked. They're not thinking like, oh, I best not hurt Susan's feelings. They're just, why is that a bad idea? And so there's nothing wrong with wanting to ensure solutions are good and well rounded and everything else. They're not thinking about the impact piece. So when we Sit down with them. It's a feedback conversation first, before you start to coach, to say, here's what I saw this morning. Like, when you were in the meeting this morning, I noticed that every time Susan piped up with an idea, you'd kind of cut her off and, like, cut her off at the knees. Talk to me about that. Or you'd shut down her ideas. Like, I'm very colloquial, so I use a lot of, like, slangy stuff when I talk to people. But you, you know, you shoot down her ideas. Talk to me about that. And that person's going to say, like, well, you know, she's always picking stuff out of left field, is never going to work. Or whatever it is in their heads that tells you the intention behind what they were trying to do. And if you want them to not be defensive, you want to validate the intention.
So you say, okay, so this was about trying to make sure we got the best solutions on the table. Well, I. I do appreciate that, because I really like making sure what we do is great and rigorous and everything else that's really good. Right. So you're saying, I understand what you were trying to.
That makes sense to me. So you're not an idiot. I get it. And I'm on side with you. Then you explain why their choice of action to accomplish that was unhelpful.
Right. So I totally get what you were trying to do was get regular solutions. But when you cut Susan off, she shuts down, and then she stops sharing ideas. And we're not actually getting the best out of everybody around the table or getting all the ideas out. And just because we didn't like these ideas doesn't mean she won't have a great one in the future. And I don't want her to be put off with sharing that later.
Right.
So how could we manage this the next time around? That we manage the rigor of the ideas without trying to shooting people's ideas down when they give them. What do you want to try?
Right.
So we don't tell them to stop doing something, because that's actually really hard for people. Maybe talk about that in a whole other episode.
But you're trying to say, I don't. I saw you do this. Talk to me about why you did this. Your why is usually sensible. I very rarely come across anyone whose why didn't make sense. Right. Their why was sensible, but their action was not. Here's the impact you had. How do we achieve your intention without having that impact?
And in the E3 world. We have that wrapped up as a model called Nicer, where it's notice the behavior, ask about the intent, explain the consequences, explore a way forwards, and then reset for the next time around. Right. So it's a kind of framework model. So I mean, that's in some of our courses if you're interested in doing more about that or you can by our framework cards is in there.
[00:04:27] Speaker B: That's genius. I could see that being super helpful, just even in things that I deal with on the day to day. So thanks for that, Jess.
[00:04:34] Speaker A: Well, it's the, it's the noticing bit. So there's a probably three nuggets I want to be really clear on. So one is noticing behavior, not judgment. Right. So why were you so rude to Susan this morning? I mean, most of us know that positioning is not going to help, but that's judgment, Right? I saw your behavior and I've decided you're rude. But if I talk to you about being rude, you're going to get defensive because in your head, you weren't rude, you were being rigorous or whatever it was you were doing. Right. And that's how we get here. So noticing the behavior. So I noticed that when Susan was talking, you would cut her off.
That's an observation, which feels less spiky than talking to you about the judgment of your behavior. So that's the first thing to try and do.
Back to an observation. And that can be hard, especially if it's someone who's pissed you off. Right. If you're the one who's annoyed because you're feeling emotional, you tend to go to judgment. So being able to wind back and say, this is what I saw you do. Can you talk to me about this? Then it's really important to validate intent because that's what keeps it non defensive, offensive. If you're saying, okay, that's what you were trying to do, I get that. That makes, actually, that makes a lot of sense to me. Then that person's going, oh, good, we're still on the same page. Everything's fine. You're not criticizing me. We're talking about a thing I did. And then you're explaining consequences in a way they care about.
Because sometimes I'll see things like, but you really hurt Susan's feelings. Well, it depends on that person's relationship with Susan, their personality type, and a whole bunch of other things. Maybe they don't care. Now, everyone wants you to care about Susan, but let's be clear. People don't care. Right? So in that hair in their head, that person's probably looking at you going, yeah, sure. In the head, they're thinking, I don't care about Susan. This is an idiot. I don't know why Susan says all those things she says is meaning she's an idiot. So unless we can explain the consequences in a way they care about, they're going to nod at you and then they're going to leave. And next time around, they're going to cut Susan off at the knees again. So picking the picking, rather than saying you hurt Susan's feelings, which the chances are this technical person is going to look at you and go, in their.
[00:06:19] Speaker B: Head, I don't care.
[00:06:21] Speaker A: Talking about efficiency, quality of solutions. That's what they were trying to do. Right? So we tie it back to what they were trying to do, which means they're more likely to care about it, which means they're more likely to try and do something different next time around.
It sounds like a lot, but actually it's very simple. Notice, ask intention and validate it. Explain the consequences.
And if you do it a lot, practice it. You'll build the wiring and then your brain will start doing it for you.
[00:06:41] Speaker B: Perfect. And where can people find out more information about this?
[00:06:45] Speaker A: So it's baked into a lot of the training that we do. So if you do our Elevate leadership program, we do a whole module on giving feedback, and we use the nicer framework in that module. You can also buy our framework cards. So we have a set of cards.
[00:06:57] Speaker B: And I think I have a pack.
[00:06:59] Speaker A: So any of the frameworks that we use, including nicer, are available in here. And there's a little synopsis of how to use them in the deck, and.
[00:07:07] Speaker B: We'Ll put that in the show notes for everybody after the episode goes to air. Awesome. Thanks, Bess.
[00:07:12] Speaker A: Thanks.
