Episode Transcript
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Hello, everyone. My name is Jess Chapman. I'm the host for this podcast, Unlocking your People.
This is the second season that we have done, and the focus of our podcast is really all about people in the workplace. So all things related to creating culture, leadership, why people do the weird and wonderful things they do when they're at work every day with you, and how do we make work better for everybody? So today I am joined by the marvelous and wonderful Chelsea Colwell Posh, who is a archaeologist and business leader in New Brunswick, who embodies for me perhaps one of the greatest and clearest evidence and thinking about how to bring empathy and kindness to work and create workplaces where people truly can feel and be their best selves. I hope you all enjoy this week's episode. And for the Just Ask Jess segment, if you have a scenario or a topic you'd like me to talk about in that section, you can email your suggestions through to contact 3cat.
Hello. So very excited you could come join us on this. I really am. I think you have so much to share the world. I can't wait for people to hear more about your view and perspective. So thank you.
[00:01:10] Speaker B: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: You and I connected recently. I mean, we've known each other for a little while now, but you and I were connected recently on some of the things that I was putting in LinkedIn around the way the world is today.
And I think you share some of my concerns about the way that we are trending to this kind of idea of might is right. And by being strong means being to some extent, cruel to people. And the stats do show, the statistics and research show that we are losing empathy. We're becoming less empathetic in the world, less able to be tolerant to other people, and less kind. And for me, actually, right now, the world is looking for more of it and somehow doing less of it. And so I wanted one of the conversations we have on the podcast series amongst all of the other conversations we're going to have to be around kindness. And I couldn't think of anybody better to come and join me and have that conversation, because ever since I have known you, that has been the epitome of how I thought about you. So can you talk a little bit for folks about your view of kindness and how that kind of fits with work?
[00:02:15] Speaker B: Sure.
So it wasn't something that was inherent, you know, my whole life. It wasn't something I focused on.
It was just. I want to say how I was raised, but I Think when the pandemic hit, it was a moment for me where I just saw so much divisiveness.
I saw people trying their best, not acknowledging that the others they're judging are trying their best.
And I just thought, you know, if kindness was something that people worked on as much as they work on their six pack, their hairdo, their education, then I felt the world would be a little better.
It just inherently would have to be. And so I'm a true believer in effective altruism. And what that is, is I want to help, but I want to know what it matters. So I was really focusing, doubling down on running my business better and what that entails. You know, I joined the Wallace McCain Institute in Atlantic Canada, and essentially I doubled, down, tripled down on trying to just be a better leader, be a better employer, be a better subcontractor, a better archaeologist, you know, a better mother, everything. One of the tenets of WMI is one life. And what that means is, you know, there's no work life balance per se. There's one person who is that person. And they, they can't shut off, you know, worrying about payroll at 5 o' clock on Friday. So it's just acknowledging, like, that you're not in a vacuum at work, that you bring things from home with you, bring things from work back home with you.
And it's too exhausting to mask to be anything other than who you are. But you also have to have a choice when it comes to how you show up. You know, I tell my girls the most important thing they put on every morning is their attitude.
You really have to be genuine and authentic in who you are, but make the choice to put on, you know, that attitude and your view, system, your belief before you head out into the world. And so I just, I started doing that in my, in my business and started meeting people where they are as opposed to where I think they should be or I want them to be.
Started looking at people as the protagonist in their own story. Everyone's walking around the world through their own perspective, and you have to acknowledge that and just always assume good intentions.
And for the most part, you can navigate any conversation through that.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: Love it. And it'll. So much of that for me resonates with what we try and do at E3. Like the. I'll often show up to sessions and be like, you know, nobody got up in the morning and went, I'm going to work today and annoy everybody. That's my goal. Like, that's nice. That's not how people function, that might be what they're doing, but that is not how people intended to spend their day.
And that piece that we hear so often about, you have no idea what's going on for somebody else. Right. You have no idea what's happening in their life. And maybe you are just happen to be there in the moment where life catches them off guard and you get the brunt of it. But that doesn't mean that that's what they meant to do. And it doesn't actually mean it's about you either. Which is, I think one of the biggest learnings for me from my 20s to now was someone's unhappy towards me. That doesn't necessarily mean they're unhappy with me. Right. Which is a really big distinction and not something I think we teach people early enough in life.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: Yeah. I think there's a saying that if the reaction is greater than a 5 on a 10 scale, it's not about what you're talking about. No, it's about something else.
[00:06:13] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, I really like the idea too. You pointed there about like kindness as work, like it's something hard. Right. Because sometimes when I talk about kindness and we talk, you know, obviously we do a lot of stuff in culture space and there is a notion sometimes I think that kindness means being a softy or a pushover or you do the fluffy stuff and actually for me that's not the case.
I actually think sometimes if you're really going to be kind to somebody, it means telling them the truth and means being honest with somebody. And it means holding up a mirror to something perhaps they haven't seen or thought about before.
So I, for me, I don't, I don't think kindness is counter to the tough business decisions. I think it's part and parcel of them.
But I do know sometimes people get stuck, particularly when we talk about like hard accountability conversations, things like that. People like, how do I, how do I do that? Like how do I do that? And I've got to put this lens on now and suddenly I've got to become this hard nosed person. Got to go have a tough conversation. So how do you do it, Courtney? How do balance, like holding people accountable, giving them the feedback with still maintaining your lens on kindness.
[00:07:21] Speaker B: So that is probably the hardest part of my entire existence as a, as a leader, employer.
Because I never ever want to intentionally or unintentionally hurt people. So that in mind, I first recognize my own feelings about it.
If I think, ooh, I really don't want to have to talk to so and so about this behavior, then that just confirms to me I have to do it. And I have to do it as soon as possible. Because the more aversion I have, the more serious it is, and the more I have to acknowledge that this is something that I would want to delegate, abdicate, or avoid just as a, as a naturally conflict averse person. So I. That's my metric. If it's like, I really do not want to do that, then it's like, okay, I have to do it and I have to schedule it, but I can't schedule. You know, even the way you schedule something reflects that you understand the person. You know, if someone on a Friday afternoon was like, chelsea, we have to have a conversation on Monday morning, it's really serious. You've just ruined my weekend. There's nothing that I'll be doing all weekend except worrying about that conversation. And it could be as easy as you're parking in the president's parking spot. Please stop. Right.
And so it's, you know, the lead up, the build up. How do you, how do you manage expectations? And really, it's. There's not a conversation in the entire world that cannot happen with empathy and understanding and kindness and calmness. Right? Sometimes just people coming in with their haunches up, ready to be in a defensive stance. The moment that they have their shield up and they've got their fighter's gait and their stance ready, it doesn't matter what you say. The idea is let them know it's not a battle before they get there.
Leave your shield at home.
Everything I'm going to be sending your way is packaged, you know, in bright pink wrapping paper with a bow, and a little cupid's gonna fly it over. Right. But the idea is that there's something true and important that has to be communicated.
And so everybody's heard. Clear is kind. But I've often seen people use that as a way to just be candid in a way that's cruel and then package it as well. You know, clarity is kindness. That's right. I don't know. I'm communicating. This is true.
And it's like, yes, but something can be true and delivered in a different manner as well. So I like to say kind is clear.
And that means you put kindness first as a filter and then you, you effectively. It doesn't mean you sugarcoat. It doesn't mean you don't have the hard conversation. It just means, how can I do this in a manner that both tells the person what the Problem is why it's a problem.
Offer support. That's the other thing is you can't just, you know, drop a problem on someone's lap and then leave and good luck, you know, you're gonna need it.
And that if I'm gonna have a conversation, I don't want anyone ever worrying, like I do about, you know, how to take something. So I'll just explicitly. It's as easy as.
Thanks for meeting with me today. My intention is to communicate with you about, you know, something that really needs to be talked about, but in a way that I can be here and help you kind of work on this with you, because I'm really interested as well in learning more about how to be effective or. And whatever the conversation is, you just set the tone. You just essentially say, like, you know, this is.
Doesn't have to be hard. You don't have to be defensive that this is not something I'm accusing you of. This is something that, you know, it's my role to, to ensure you have everything you need. And I feel like you don't. So how can I help you?
[00:11:55] Speaker A: I think that's that so much in that that's valuable. And I was like, as you were talking, I was like, there's six different places I want to go in this conversation now. But the, the consideration of impact piece, I think, is the bit that sometimes we forget. We get caught up in our own needs in a conversation. We get caught up in, I need to make this person understand, I need to change how they're doing things or they're not doing something that's useful. And I need, I need, I need. And because it' then the emphasis in the conversation is not on how is the other person going to receive any of this. It's did I convey what I need to convey in this conversation? But good conversation is two people. Like I always say, like, the number of times you're in a conversation with somebody, and it's two people talking at each other instead of talking with each other. And so the thought process for me, often watch, when I watch people do prep for, like, accountability conversations or crucial conversations is they focus on what it is they want to convey. They focus on what they want to push to the other person.
And I think the piece that I hear from you that resonates with me so loudly is thinking about, how do you want the other person to feel at the end of this conversation? Because nobody ever responds positively from being told off. Nobody ever feels like they want to change from someone wagging their Finger at them or telling them they did a better job. People change when they feel comfortable to listen and hear and hear things that maybe they haven't heard before or they have heard before, but they find difficult. And so that consideration of who's on the other side of this conversation, where might they be right now, I think is just as important. Thinking about the impact of the conversation as what am I trying to get out. But I don't know that we always do that prep.
And the other piece you said that resonated with me was a conversation I had with somebody yesterday when we were talking about how do you have that calmness? Because often these are emotionally challenging conversations, Right. Often they are conversations where, to your point, we've already scenario played them 19 times, usually assuming the worst.
And we are going into the conversation expecting a fight, expecting the defensiveness, expecting everything else. And she said something that was very similar to what I. So she says what she does is she builds a brick wall between her and the other person, mentally builds a wall. So if the. Particularly if they're highly emotional, highly charged or yelling at her or something like that, because that happens in her role, she will imagine putting bricks up between her and the other person. Right. And then her brain is focused on doing that, not on receiving the emotion. I have something similar. I imagine zipping myself into a hazmat suit. So if I know I'm going to be having a really emotionally charged conversation with someone, which in my job can happen quite often, if I expecting, like, if I'm going to tell somebody they've been accused of sexual harassment, chances are they're going to have an emotional reaction to that. Not to me, to be clear, but I will imagine zipping myself up into a. Into a hazmat suit, and then there's a kind of metaphysical barrier between me and the emotions of the other person. Are there any things that you have learned as you've been grappling with how to do this in the real world that help you bring that stuff to the table?
[00:14:43] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's brilliant because I almost do the opposite in which I open the floodgates and I allow that person the pour emotion out into you, because first of all, wonderful that they care enough to even have an emotional response. That right there shows you that this is not somebody, you know, who doesn't care and is in a vacuum. And, you know, I cannot turn off my emotion. I am a crier, and that includes happy, sad, angry, hurt. And so I would really.
I'm very cognizant of, you know, trying not to put myself in a situation where, you know, I might affect other people by crying. And what I, what I mean by that is I'm affected by other people's emotions. So if I'm going to have a conversation with someone who just lost a parent or something like that, you know, I have to really steel myself to ensure that I don't start a chain of emotion that they might not be ready for or open to.
So you have to think about all these things. That's where it's like, it's not as easy as just being a friendly, nice person. And niceness and kindness are very, very different. One mask that you hope people will see you as and that you go out of your way to make sure people see. And one is just an understanding that everyone is doing their best, everyone wants to be understood.
No one likes receiving feedback that is saying that that thing you worked so hard on, you know, it fell short or missed the mark. And so just understanding that and it's like, okay, well, how, what would make me receive this a little better? You know, just knowing that this person is gonna, you know, check in on me. We're gonna hold me accountable. And not in a like, kind of weight loss drill sergeant kind of way where you publicly weigh yourself in front of everyone, but in a way that, you know, makes me want to be a better person and try my best and not disappoint that person who believes in me. Right. Not to say that you should overutilize guilt either, because you have to acknowledge that as a, as a leader, as the owner of a company or manager or even a team leader, someone that you just know you're respected by the people who work with you. And maybe they're juniors or they're younger people starting out entry level positions. You have a position of power, you have a position of influence. And so you have to be very, very cautious about the type of person that they look up to and maybe want to shape themselves into, because that's a lot of responsibility and you don't want to put out a bunch of assholes.
[00:17:55] Speaker A: No, it's true. And we forget. I think we forget too. You forget how much people watch, you think, you know, I've watched the number of leaders climb the ladders over the years, and some of them ascend, you know, all the way up to the top of CEO. And you have conversations with people and they're like, I'm just a person. I'm like, yes, you are. But to other people, you're More than a, like, you are somebody they aspire to, they're watching you. And everything you do, which can be really daunting, is a signal of what's okay and not okay. And there's something you said earlier that remind me. I have no, I have no recollection who said it. I probably should, but that kind of mental checklist of is it true, is it necessary and is it kind? Right.
[00:18:30] Speaker B: So, Socrates, is it? Yes.
[00:18:35] Speaker A: Really great triple gate process for before I open my mouth. Right. Particularly for those of us, and I put myself in this category who are on the more action and opinionated end of the spectrum that two seconds of. Hang on a second. Do I even need to say this? And do I need to say it right now? And do I need to say it in this way for the other person? Sometimes just stuff doesn't need to be said.
[00:18:57] Speaker B: Yeah. And sometimes the intention is that you want to make a point or you want to be validated in what you observe or you feel is true.
And so if you step back and you think, what is my intention in saying this? If it's to change behavior, that's a whole other, you know, I can't just say an off the cuff remark right now.
That has to be a, hey, you know.
Yeah. Do you think we could meet later to talk about this thing in a productive way that I can support you? And, you know, and so they're not worrying and thinking about it. But, but if it's, you know, if it's a selfish little pat yourself on the back or validate something you've observed, it really does not need to be said. And Socrates, he's, you know, the best way to learn is asking questions. And so if you want to understand people, you talk to them and you ask questions. The introvert in me is just like, no, but I promise, you cannot have empathy without perspective. Because empathy is different than sympathy in that you are trying to think about the person and the situation they're in and what they could possibly be feeling or going through. Where sympathy is just, ah, that's too bad. I feel bad for you. Have a tissue. Yep, yep.
[00:20:25] Speaker A: So wise, my dear, so wise.
One of the things I hear is a thread through everything you're saying that I think is really important to bring out is the role of the relationship, like you talked about. So we've been talking about kindness as almost like an action and an activity. But when I listen to you, you talk about being respected, you talk about somebody who believes in you, and you talk about like the connection Points and the time in which we're gonna spend with somebody to work with them on things. And I think that that is. Well, certainly from a. From a neuroscience perspective on the things I've seen, the extent to which somebody believes that you trust in them and you believe in them allows you greater, more challenging conversations than you might otherwise have. Right. And sometimes when I talk to leaders, it's like, well, yes, but I don't want to be their friend. I don't want to be was friend, right? And I'm their leader, so I have to maintain their leader. And I think there's ways around that. So how do you build relationships with folks that allows you to get to that place of that kind of quality relationship without blurring the boundaries?
[00:21:22] Speaker B: I'm a diver. I do a lot of underwater archaeology, and we always dive in partners. Safety is number one.
So when we show up to a site and we're getting ready to go in, we have a rule as divers in general, but especially at my business, that I go to every diver.
Not in front of everybody, but I just go to each diver and I say, how you feeling? You feeling up to diving? And if they say no, they don't have to explain why they don't have to.
Nobody's allowed to peer pressure or shame or guilt somebody, because that's when people dive when they shouldn't and get into accidents. And if one part of a duo gets into an accident, the other one usually as well. So the rule is ask if they are okay to do the work that we had set aside the day for, with the idea that it's 100% okay if they can't, and that my preference is that without explanation, they just say, no, I cannot. And we just call the day then for them to try, because it could be, you know, devastating.
And I would never, ever, ever want anyone to get hurt. And that can be the same for emotions and for mental health.
Right. Just because it's not a gaping wound, bleeding that you have to put a tourniquet on. There are emotional and mental versions of tourniquets or preventative measures. And in a lot of cases, those psychological wounds and hurts people go through to try to live up to something they can't or do something that's against maybe their values or, you know, those are a lot more insidious, and they're harder to heal because it's.
[00:23:23] Speaker A: You can't see them. That's right. They're there and often quite deep. It's interesting. You remind me of a number of conversations I've had over the years with people trying desperately to fit into organizations.
And I will say, and it's probably not statistically accurate, but the vast majority of them were women feeling like they needed to be something else or do something else or show up some other way in order to be acknowledged or appreciated, appreciated or valued. And my conversation has always been separate from being valued here, from being valuable, like they're not the same thing. You inherently, as a human being, no matter who you are, have value. The fact you might be in an organization that doesn't see that value does not make you wrong. But I don't know that we always feel like we have the opportunity or the latitude or somehow if I keep on pushing and I keep on trying, at some points the magic is going to happen. That person is going to see me for the brilliance that I am. If we could have more of the conversations I think you're talking about, have more of that psychological safety, the openness, the transparency, to say, you know what, this is not right for me, like what I value and what's important to me and what you value and what's important to you. Don't line up. That doesn't make either one of us wrong. We just don't fit together. I think we'd be in a much better place in terms of people's mental health in a lot of cases, around, certainly around workplaces and things that people do.
[00:24:43] Speaker B: Absolutely. And it's really a missed opportunity for entrepreneurs, for leaders, for managers. I like to say everybody's a leader. It doesn't matter what your role is. If you are the person in charge of mopping the floors after hours or you're on a team of 20, a team of 100. There's always opportunity to be a positive influence, to be a motivator, to set the tone with attitude and openness. You know, there was that book, the Four Agreements. You know, being impeccable in your word, that means the story you tell and you keep going over, either internally or verbally to other people, that is the truth.
Doesn't matter, you know, if it actually is or not. But if you keep telling people, oh, you know, everything, I just don't have any luck. I just keep getting kicked when I'm down.
And every time you talk to yourself or other people about what's going on, that becomes your truth. True. Right. I believe, you know, I'm not necessarily someone who believes in manifestation except when it comes to how you feel.
I believe wholeheartedly that, you know, you manifest your truth by the narrative that is continuously played. Maybe it's instead of, I can't believe this happened to me again, it's, oh my goodness, how lucky. It could have been worse. Or I have experience with this, so oh my goodness, how great that I have opportunity to try out these new skills I learned the last time.
And that's a dramatic shift. And I think every person in an organization has to have accountability for that.
You cannot control your crazy CEO, you cannot control your crazy president and multi billionaire sidekick, but you can control how you show up, how you act and how you react.
And that means every single person has the ability to lead effectively and lead by example.
Yeah.
[00:27:09] Speaker A: And positively impact all the people around them. We talk about what you focus on, you get more of. Right. And I think, I worry sometimes that our emphasis on clickbait headlines and drama in social media in like reality TV being as kind of out there as it can be, makes us forget that our job is not actually to join in the drama like our job, especially at work. I mean, what you do at home is different. But especially at work, your job is not to get into it with the person. The job is to say, how do I best support you to get out of this? And if we took ownership for ourselves and then we coached other people around us, how much healthier would our workplace places be? But we got to teach people to do that, I guess. And we don't necessarily do that.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: Yeah. I think there's this belief in lack of agency when you are a person that has value. There's no one, even the CEO, even the President of the United States, you know, there's no one who is more valuable than someone else, ever. You are a person. You matter. What you do matters, what you say matters, what you make of your life should matter. But you have to believe that you have that ability. You have to go to work and say, you know what? I am allowed to question something. You have to, as the, as the employer, as the entrepreneur, you have to be the one to say, am I creating an environment that allows space for that, that tells them this is okay and they're not going to be penalized or something, that they may have been another job.
Right. And you have to not only keep the door open, take it off the hinges. Right. Then there's no question about if there's an open door policy or not, because there's no door. Yeah.
[00:28:53] Speaker A: How do you make it as visible as possible? And. But I think that's really important too, because how many times have we been around people where They've said open door policy, but you can never find them or get hold of them or talk to them. And they leave the office without saying goodbye or checking in or any of those things. And again, right back to our conversation. I don't believe any of that is ever intentional.
Vast majority of people over the long time I've been doing this stuff, including myself, as I'm human, I screw it up too. And I didn't wake up in the morning and think, how do I screw it up today? I just might have done that. Right? So I love, I love the combination of like, recognizing your agency, recognizing that you are more empowered than you think you are, you have more ability than you think you do, but let's use that ability, thinking kindly about the other person we're talking to and how do we create those environments as leaders that allow people to question and ask and explore and challenge and make maybe recognize that it's not the right place for them and go somewhere where they can be truly successful or realize it is the right place for them and really blossom into whatever it is that they can be.
[00:29:51] Speaker B: That's right. And if you start thinking of employees in a way where, you know, you want to have alumni out there speaking highly of their experience, you want to put out a person after having them work for you, that that is more developed, happier, has more confidence, is a better leader, I am more interested in putting out almost better people as a product of having worked for me, because that's just not only a duty I feel for the community, it's a way for me to try to apply a solution to what I, I see just as you a problem right now in the world, you know, these are all ways that you can absolutely change your environment for the better.
Perfect.
[00:30:56] Speaker A: I think that is a perfect note to end the conversation. I'd love to keep talking to you for the rest of the afternoon, but I know you have places to go and people to see. So thank you so much for joining me today and having this conversation. I love everything about your wisdom and I hope there's lots of nuggets from this conversation that people can take and new noodle on over the next few days and contemplate their own agency and ownership and impact on others. So, Chelsea, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it.
[00:31:21] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. And I'm so excited that you're getting your podcast up and running again because I just, I love everything you're about and the people who are listening should know, you know, you are Also one of the kindest people I know of. And the fact that you are bringing it out to the business world, that's a very effective altruistic thing of you for you to do. So thank you so much.
[00:31:53] Speaker A: So in this portion of the show, we get into what we call Just Ask Jess, where I take questions or scenarios from folks that have come in over the last couple of weeks and talk about something in particular.
And this week I actually had three things come in that were very, very similar in the cause of the issue. So I'm going to talk about the three of them because they're all to do with conflict of interest.
So we've had a situation this week where we had an individual who is involved in the request for proposal RFP process, who actually had a relationship with one of the bodies who put in a proposal and didn't disclose it. We had a situation where an employee had a relationship with a new client, bought into an organization and didn't disclose it. And we had a situation where somebody that was on a hiring committee involved in recruiting somebody for a position actually had a relationship with one of the candidates and didn't disclose it. And so all of those three things can happen actually fairly often.
They're all related to disclosure of conflict of interest. And conflict of interest is an interesting thing that we don't necessarily always think about in organizations or think about putting the prep work in to kind of prevent them from happening. Most of the time when we are involved in those types of scenarios, I would say it's not intentional. So it's not that the person woke up in the morning and said, I'm not going to tell you about this relationship. For the most part, it comes from a lack of understanding about what we mean by conflict of interest, a lack of understanding of how that might apply in their role, or sometimes just not really understanding the significance of the relationship they have and how that might actually affect what's going in in the organization. So, like, I live and work in Newfoundland. It's a small community.
The likelihood is, you know, a lot of people. Therefore, if you're doing hiring, the chances are you know a lot of the people that might put in an application. And people don't always think about the difference in those types of relationships, whether or not you're friends with somebody, whether that makes a difference. And because you know that you're quite capable of interviewing and you know you're quite capable of kind of separating in your own head, you think it's not necessarily an issue or a big Deal. And we don't bring those things forwards. But all of those situations can cause issues for the organization. Whether it's reputational or some, you know, some allegation or accusation of bias in a process. Those are the things that we're trying to avoid. So in all of those situations, there are, there's definitely things that we can make sure we have in place to mitigate the risk of it happening. And whenever we're thinking about people and kind of performance, we talk about the ABCs, right? So firstly, you want to make sure that people are aware of what we're talking about. So just saying the words disclose or declare conflict of interest does not mean that somebody truly understands what you mean by conflict of interest or how it applies. So that's the first thing. Then you want to make sure that they really are motivated and care about a conflict of interest policy or practice. And that's about understanding the risks and the issues and the consequences involved. Once we understand the consequences of something, then our motivation level goes up.
Then you want to make sure they know what to do in those situations. And then you're going to need to remind them. Because as much as we love saying yes, we did onboarding and everybody signed their policy, I'm going to ask most of you if you can remember half of the policies you sign when you joined an organization. The chance is probably not. So for the things that are really important in organizations, we need to be reminding people of them on a regular basis through a different. Through different means. So there's a few things on that basis we would recommend organizations have in place. The first is making sure you actually have a conflict of interest policy. It spells out what a conflict of interest is, what you do and when it should show up, what you should do if one shows up. And it kind of brings out in the open the whole conversation. So there's no worrying about should I say something, should I not say something, what do I do, how do I do it? You take all of that off the table with a policy. So get everybody to read the policy for interest.
Policies are great though. But policies don't necessarily mean I fully understand or I remember. And so regular training for folks could be a short online course, could be just going back through a policy with somebody on a regular basis. But we need to be reminded of the policy on a regular basis. So doing that is important.
Think about the processes you have the that a conflict of interest is likely to occur in and put checklists in place. So if you're doing a kickoff with a hiring committee.
Make sure that there is a conversation at the kickoff meeting about what a conflict of interest is, how it might show up, how to disclose it, what will happen if someone needs to be removed from the interview process for a particular candidate? Just take all of it off the table. Same with an RFP or selection process. Make sure that those questions are built in to what you do.
And then you can also consider doing something like a disclosure form where people actually fill in information about relationships they have and kind of more formalize those things. Now, that won't prevent something from happening at some point because people are human beings. Somebody will still do all of that and somebody somewhere will still think it's okay. Oh, I wasn't thinking about it. Didn't put two and two together. But you will reduce the vast majority of issues by having the structures in place. And then when you do have those structures in place, at least when an issue occurs, there is a clear policy that outlines what you do in those circumstances so the person knows that you're treating them fairly and equitably based on the policy, not based on the situation at hand. So that's what we would recommend. Generally in conflict of interest situations like this, make sure you've got those things in place.
And then as you have issues occur, hopefully you won't have many. But as something comes up, do you need to tweak, adjust, change, augment the policy and training that you're doing to take into account the new situations as they show up. Got any questions about conflict of interest pieces? Feel free to get in touch. We are looking at adding a conflict of interest overview course to our short course catalog. So that should be available by the end of the year. So that brings us to the end of today's show. Thanks everybody for joining me today. A massive thank you, of course, to Chelsea for her wisdom and to the marvelous Roz at Double Barrel for being our director and producer who keeps everything on track.
Again, if you got questions for us or scenarios for just us. Yes. Or suggestions on speakers or other guests that might join us, you can reach out to me directly at contact3ca or of course find us on LinkedIn in and you can check out our podcast episodes on our website E3CA and on YouTube, Spotify and iTunes. Thanks very much everybody. See you next time.
