Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Foreign.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: To another episode in our Unlocking your people podcast series. Today, we are talking about sales. Now, you might be thinking, what does that have to do with hr? Well, actually, for me, quite a lot because it has to do with people.
And some of you may not know that I actually started my career in sales. And I've always said that I thought I was good at sales because I was good at people, not necessarily because I was good at sales. Selling. So I'm kind of curious today to see what our guest has to say about all of that and whether she thinks I'm in the right headspace for it or not.
But sales is really all about relationships, and sales is all about building trust. And those are things that are true for those of us that need sales people, but also true for any of us that are building relationships and organizations. So I'm thrilled today to be introduced by Susan Engelhardt, who is the CEO of an organization called the Wade Buyers Buy. And Susan is going to be giving us at her take on how you build sales within an organization and whether you really do need to add more salespeople or not. So over to Susan.
[00:01:02] Speaker A: So I think to introduce myself, maybe I can tell one story, and that's that in my early career, I worked in tech companies and large tech companies, and I was responsible for the care and feeding of a worldwide salesforce.
And there was this one event coming, and it was the annual sales conference. We rented a whole resort, brought everybody in from around the world, and I was responsible for all the content. And I just said, we can't do it. Do what we've done every year, which is kill them by PowerPoint, and then, like, not really create any change.
And so I had two colleagues, and they were smarter than I was, and they knew things that I hadn't learned yet. And they said, why don't we bring in sales process and sales methodology? And I said, what on earth is that?
Like, that sounds really cool. What is that? So we sat down together and we talked about it, and we. And I said, that sounds brilliant. Can you imagine if everybody in the organization beyond just the salespeople, the executives and the services people and the technical salespeople and marketing and like, can you imagine customer service? Can you imagine if we all understood this thing in the same way, how powerful that would be? So I took the two of them by the hands.
We went up to the office of the senior vice president of worldwide sales. Jim sat down and said, these two had a really good idea. Let me tell you what their idea is. And he said, go find the best sales methodology company you can find in the world.
And we did. And they actually didn't have enough trainers and staff. And so we had to be trained before they came. So the thing here is I have come from a non core salesperson background. I learned sales process probably about eight years into my career. And when I started to learn that there was a way buyers buy, I went, why did nobody tell me this before? Because if I understand the basic principles of way a buyer buys in those three stages can solve every sales and every marketing problem there is, I can align every person in an organization that touches the sales process, from executives to marketing to salespeople to product marketing to product. I can align all of those people because there's a way of thinking about it. And I was just, to me, it was just a huge gift and it completely changed the trajectory of my career because I realized not that many people understand how to apply that to all these different disciplines. And fast forward, I actually became a partner in that huge, quite a few years later in that huge sales methodology firm. And they would sell like one point, you know, 2 million, $2 million sales transformation projects. And I'm talking Fortune 50 companies.
And they started to knock on my door in Canada and say, we sold this $2 million engagement. We haven't transformed anything.
We need your help.
And I think the key takeaway there is we don't change the growth trajectory of an organization by replacing or changing a salesperson or giving them a new tip or a new trick. We make change by changing the organization and the alignment and the language and the process and how people work together. And that's what I do. There. That was longer than I thought it was going to be.
[00:04:06] Speaker B: That's perfect. That's the best introduction ever. And so now we can get into picking your brains more about all the things we want to know from you. So a lot of people, when they think about the sales world, tend to think of it like as a transactional thing, as an operational thing.
I cut my teeth in the sales world in Unilever. And it was more. We were relationship managers. It was more about building relationships. So I was wanting to get your take on that, but I think you had flagged that you don't love the use of relationship.
[00:04:35] Speaker A: I don't love the use. I hate the use of the rid relationship, but I don't, I don't hate what's underneath it, but I hate the use of the word. And let me share why people who don't know why they are successful in sales will say it is because of relationship.
And people who hear the word relationship being used with sales, like, what is it they first think of? What's the first thing they think of.
[00:05:08] Speaker B: When they say relationship with sales?
[00:05:10] Speaker A: Yeah, they say they think taking them out to dinner, a golf game.
[00:05:15] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:05:15] Speaker A: Having a drink. Right. And so, so to love, schmoozing side of things. Schmoozing. That, that bit which really isn't what we love and which really isn't any of the ethos that my clients have around, around selling. And so I would just define that. I would define the word relationship really clearly and just say, what is relationship? In my language, the relationship you have is with the buyer, and the buyer is the driver. You are on a road trip together. You are in the car together. There's a two seater. And so the driver's in the buying seat and you as the salesperson, you are in the passenger seat. So that relationship is. Your relationship is as a copilot.
And you have been invited into their car on their road trip. So it's an interesting relationship. Like, you're not in control. It's not pushy.
But your relationship is. You're here to help them understand how to navigate this thing, which is purchasing something from you. So if that's the way we define relationship, I am totally in love with the use of relationship in selling. I think there are like, like there are different sales models that are, you know, transactional, transactional, transactional. Like if you sell a commodity. Right.
Transactional, transactional, transactional. But the more complex a sale gets, the more that co pilot relationship is really important. So if that's how we define it, I'm in love.
[00:06:47] Speaker B: Yes. No, that is definitely how I would define it. Your point? I think there are different models, but in, in our world in particular, we're talking business to business. We're talking.
Yes. Sales processes. More than one person with their finger in the mix. Decision maker may not be the first person you talk to. All of those great things. And it's funny because when you said like relationship, I was like, oh.
[00:07:07] Speaker A: Because I've always said, oh, no, where's this gonna go?
[00:07:10] Speaker B: I always thought I was not good at sales because I was. But I was good at relationships, therefore I was good at selling. And then you're like, we can't put relationship in it. But I, I largely think about our world the way you're defining co pilot. Like we are co pilot people's car. Right. Like, we don't. E3 is not driving the car. We're getting in the bus, getting on the bus with you and saying, watch out, you're going to get a flat tire. Let me help you fix the tire. So I actually love that analogy, and I'm glad that I'm not too far apart from what you were thinking.
[00:07:34] Speaker A: No, you're not too far apart. And actually, you raise a good metaphor. I love the visual you said getting on the bus, because sometimes there is a bus load and it's not just the driver, but you are the co pilot, you know, but there are 36 people that you need to somehow help them navigate through this complex decision. And it's like, it's very respectful.
[00:07:54] Speaker B: So how do we. I mean, I think the lens of schmoozing, for want of a better word, still exists, right? There is still the I'm going to whine you and dine you, and that's going to turn into, like, sales. I think it's changed a lot over the years, and certainly with policies that require you to disclose gifts and all that type of stuff, some of that has changed somewhat. Yes, but how do we, like, how do organizations get the kind of same lens? How do you encourage everybody who's on the bus to see sales the way you do? Like, there's a co pilot and a driver. Like, how do we help people and understand sales is about relationship, but not in the schmoozy way?
[00:08:30] Speaker A: Well, we have exactly the conversation that you and I just had. And, you know, we put the car on the road and we explain who the car belongs to, and we explain that we're the co pilot and they're the driver. And that is the first turning point.
And it's the first turning point because the people in the room who would have thought that selling is about relationship, defined as schmoozing, then all of a sudden they realize, I'm not in control.
And I think that's a key thing, too, about a culture that is around sales is actually we're not in control the driver or the buyer. They're the only people who know really what they're going to do. They're the only people who know whether they like you and your products and services versus someone else's. They're the only one who knows how much money they have. No, you know, they just know everything. And we know very little unless they choose to disclose it to us. So the first thing is just explaining, this is your role. This is where you are in the vehicle, and you can just see the room shift and start thinking, well, that Changes that changes things.
And, and then we go through sort of in every possible step in the sales process as we go through it. So one of the other things is about relationship is, you know, one of the key things in sales process or in buying process is what has changed. And that's the beginning that, that the change is what turns the ignition in that car and puts the gas pedal down so that that buying process and that sales process moves forward. So what has changed? So one of the key things in changing this behavior is have I assumed that something has changed? Have I assumed the change? Have I assumed how critical the problem is? Have I assumed that I'm actually in the car with a buyer, with a driver? Or am I in the car and I'm in the trunk or I'm in the back seat or where on earth am I? Am I on the side of the road? Am I on the sidewalk? So there's a lot of assumptions and the. If we go in with the mindset that I'm the driver, well, it doesn't matter because I'm doing everything. I'm making all of the decisions.
I'm telling them what they need. I'm showing the presentation. And I hate to really talk about this stuff because to me it's kind of, it's old school and not, not the culture. I don't really, I don't want to say it out loud in case it reinforces in somebody's mind that this is the way they should act or behave. Right.
So.
But it changes the whole thing when you understand, like, so now I can't actually assume because I am not in control.
So I need to have a conversation. I need to actually ask them. I need to figure out how and when to ask them in a way that would be appropriate. I have to be authentic enough that they are comfortable with me that they will actually answer the question or at least partly answer it this time.
So there's a whole bunch of cascading things that happens down that line.
[00:11:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I absolutely love your metaphor because for me it's the, the salesperson is not the driver piece. With so much of sales. I'm going to go in and pitch, right? I'm going to go in and pitch to you.
I'm like, how? What are you pitching? You don't know anything about what the person wants. You don't know anything about who they are, what their pain points are. Like, there's no telling and selling.
[00:11:37] Speaker A: It's asking and responding, asking and responding. So I'll tell you a short story which you can keep or you can edit out, but one of the clients I'm working with right now, somebody has come across into that organization where they're selling something complex. And they've come from what would be more that transactional world, right?
And it has taken us from the end of January until now, which is the end of April, to help that individual really shift their thinking. And it's just really in the last couple of weeks that they've shifted their thinking. And like three weeks ago, or maybe, maybe it was even two weeks ago, but they, they were at the point where they're saying, I just want to go in and say, look, we'll just take what we have and we'll just stand it up in your organization and you're going to love it so much, you will pay for. Pay us for it, and you will want it. And like, I'm sorry that it doesn't work that way in selling something complex. It actually doesn't work that way. You need to find change. You need to find out how critical that problem is for, for them related to everything else that they have on their plates.
And no, I just want to go in and just say, here, I'll give it to you for free. You just stand it up. It'll take us three to four weeks. But no, no, no, no, no. That's. That. It's not going to work that way. And now finally the light bulb has gone off and it's made a huge shift. So those opportunities that that individual is working on, they were going nowhere, but now they're starting to pick up because we're in our rightful places. We're in a process that makes a lot of sense.
[00:13:05] Speaker B: Love it. Absolutely love it.
And so for me, like, our worlds are not super far apart because they're all really about understanding, understanding people and how people pick and what makes them who they are and what they want and all the rest of it, which means to be really good at people, sales, hr, whatever it is, leadership. We're talking about our emotional intelligence, right? Our ability to know ourselves, know what gets us out of bed in the morning, recognize the triggers in somebody else. This conversation is going sideways. This conversation is going well and adjust accordingly. So, like, what do you talk to sales teams and people about in terms of how they build some of those skills, build their own emotional intelligence?
[00:13:42] Speaker A: Hmm.
It's. It's an interesting question. Like, I don't explicitly think of it as emotional intelligence, so that's interesting that you, you put it that way. But, like, emotional intelligence has a Whole a number of different aspects to it.
One of them would be. One of them the aspects is empathy.
And like, if we just, if we just sit on that one for a second. Another one is, is self regulating, which is interesting, right? And that. Actually, let's try self regulating because it's kind of fun.
Because one of the things that happens if you don't realize that you are the co pilot and you're not actually the driver, One of the things that happens is everything you hear because you're thinking your own thoughts and you're evaluating an opportunity based on your own thoughts. It's just like, yeah, that's great. I did a great job. I did this, I did that, I did the next thing. It's great. It's going to close, right? And then reality happens. And it doesn't quite look like that. So I almost think of that regulation as.
I have to really check that the way I'm feeling about this right now is actually completely aligned with the buyer and where the buyer is in their buying process. And I need to regulate myself to make sure that I'm not basing my evaluation of this opportunity on my own feelings and emotions. Because I need this to close, right? I want this to close. I want this to be good. But no, I have to step back and I have to watch what they. Not even so much what the buyer said, because words are easy, but what they did, what, you know, what they identified as a next step.
Because all of those behaviors will tell me, are they still in the driver's seat and am I still in the passenger seat?
And so that's kind of. I'm, I'm riffing on that, but it's kind of like that's, that's regulating.
[00:15:35] Speaker B: And there's a, there's a piece of that too, which is around pace, right? So you're going through.
[00:15:40] Speaker A: Oh, that's a good one.
[00:15:42] Speaker B: And it's like, hang on, I've got to. This, this is not the pace the other person needs to move at. Whilst it all makes perfect sense to me and it's all clicking in my brain, it's clearly not clicking in theirs. And I need to stop, do something differently and slow down.
[00:15:53] Speaker A: That is a good one. That is a good one. So so much of the old language and metaphor around selling is go fast, speed up, do more, do more, do more. Fast, fast, fast, close, close, close, push, push, push. And I spend a lot of time telling people, slow down, set a next step, but create a window between what you did today with them and the Next step that says I may come back. Because I'll probably have some questions I didn't think to ask today.
Slow down to give your time yourself time to make sure you're in alignment with them.
[00:16:27] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:16:28] Speaker A: And to make sure that you have everything you need before you suggest to them or where you, you know, ask them if they're willing to move to the next step. And, and it's really scary to some people, but it's, it's so powerful because it's. I love your word pace. It really gets the pace to be aligned well.
[00:16:45] Speaker B: And if you move too fast, then you're just pushing them to a close. They'll unpick it later. Like if you. That's right over the line because they feel like they gotta move. It's same with the techniques of like, oh, if you don't buy it now, it'll be gone. Well, yeah, but if I buy it now and I'm unhappy I made that choice, then you're going to deal with.
[00:17:00] Speaker A: That later in some way.
[00:17:03] Speaker B: You might as well slow down and match the speed of the person who's driving the car. Yeah. Love it. Love your metabolism.
[00:17:08] Speaker A: You're very good at this.
[00:17:11] Speaker B: So self regulation.
And then you talked about empathy. So I've got to ask you about empathy. Like, talk to me about how you see that, Sean.
[00:17:19] Speaker A: The way.
Give you one or two examples.
Just even in a prospecting sense, whether it's cold or whether you've been referred to somebody. It's just.
Joe thought we should meet.
I would be really excited about that because I've helped so many people like you.
This may not be the right time for you. And there is absolutely no pressure in our conversation. It would just be nice to have the conversation if it makes sense to me. That is a type of empathy. It's, it's. I'm respecting where you're at. It's not all about me. I don't have to push.
And I find I have such good success with that kind of an approach because people realize there's no pressure.
It's not all about Susan.
[00:18:07] Speaker B: Yeah. You consider the other person. Which means that. Yeah, right. You're ticking all the nice brain boxes about you're an important person and I value your opinion and I'm going to do this in a way that works for you. And if we believe sales is about relationship, which I think we both do, why would you start a relationship with anything other than does this work for you?
[00:18:25] Speaker A: That's right. Yeah, that's exactly right. And it's so interesting that buying process and sales process you can apply to relationships. Like, like non selling relationships.
[00:18:36] Speaker B: You're gonna get marriage counselor if you're not care.
[00:18:38] Speaker A: Yeah, I know there's. Yes, I do that sometimes in sessions, but I don't charge extra for it. I don't really feel qualified.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: Different. Different type of sale. I think that way. So I mean, how do you. So you talked about this individual that you had kind of shifted the dial with.
Are there any specific techniques you suggest or things that you do when you're coaching people and kind of get them to make that move?
[00:19:03] Speaker A: What we did in this case, which is, you know, there's a part of what I do, the first part of what I do, which is a mindset and, and it is presenting the buying process and presenting a sales process. So. So when it comes to something like this where somebody is stuck, they need to see proof that it works. Right.
And so we actually took a couple of opportunities and we re engineered those opportunities to do it in this way. Right. As opposed to the way that that individual was. Was suggesting. And then all of a sudden like after two or three of those, it was like this works. I got an amazing next step in this opportunity.
Or I realize now that I tried it my way for 10 opportunities and I had a first meeting but nothing ever happened after those.
Great. So let's try this the second way.
It's a lot of small course corrections at that point. Right.
[00:20:04] Speaker B: So what's your take on. And I didn't give you this question, so apologies.
We quite often get asked, I've got someone who's not people person, how do I get them to be a good leader? Or this person is not good at talking to people and they're very technical. How do I get to that? But often technical people end up doing sales roles because they're good and understand the product or the service.
So can like what's the adjustment process? Or what are your thoughts on taking someone who's inherently technical and helping to build all the things that we're talking about?
[00:20:39] Speaker A: Is it doable?
Yeah, it's totally doable. I love that. I love working with companies where there are a lot of technical people or a lot of subject matter expertise, engineers, you name it. And the real reason why they're good at selling process is because they're actually really good at asking questions because they're looking for solutions. Right.
And so they may not think of that as being relationship, but the fact that they're going in and exploring and asking questions questions and trying to see if what they have is a fit or trying to create a solution that would be appropriate is an absolutely natural co pilot position in a buying process.
So do we call that relationship?
[00:21:23] Speaker B: Right.
[00:21:24] Speaker A: I think it's naturally a relationship. And those people can be excellent salespeople. Because the other thing is that when you look at a sales organization, there will always be 20% in that sales organization who intuitively do get how to help their buyers buy. And there will be an 80% that need a process.
So the technical people, the subject matter experts, the consultants, the executives, the entrepreneurs, all of those people, the founders, not so much, maybe founders and entrepreneurs, because they can be highly intuitive and just get that. But, but a lot of those individuals, they will really benefit from a process. And I think the process reveals to them that, that this isn't some magic competency that I'm either born with or I will never have. It's like, oh my goodness, there's a process for this. Like, there's a way buyers buy.
And this totally makes sense to the way my brain works.
So. And I think, I think then it's kind of surprising. Going back to your first question, it's kind of surprising. This isn't schmoozy, this isn't the relationship thing. The magic that I thought I had to have this just, just me being me, doing my work. How cool is that? So I can actually be successful at this.
[00:22:41] Speaker B: Well, I think that's true for so many things. I mean, gut intuition is just your brain. It's just you haven't thought about it in the same way. It's not as conscious thought that you're having. It's a reaction to things. But anytime anyone's challenged me for things that I think I do intuitively, there's a process I'm following. I just don't know I'm following.
[00:23:00] Speaker A: Absolutely.
[00:23:01] Speaker B: You break it down that way. There are. Yeah, right.
[00:23:04] Speaker A: That's. That's exactly right. And I just, I just love that when I go in to a company, I'm bringing what I know in terms of process and methodology and skill set and mindset and all those, all those things. But I'm also looking in that company because I know if the company has had any level of success, that there is at least one person, perhaps multiple people who get it intuitively. But for the life of them, they couldn't explain it to the rest of them. They couldn't repeat that. They couldn't teach the rest of them how to repeat that.
So with a sales process and with a methodology and knowing that there are one or two people in the organization that get it intuitively, then we can start unpacking that and putting that in a process so the rest of the 80% of the people that are involved in the sales function get it and can repeat that and repeat that and repeat that. That is probably one of the most magical moments in all of work that I do, because it's now I have. I've been able to create something that they won't necessarily perform at the level of that person who got it intuitively on their own. They may even outperform them.
[00:24:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:16] Speaker A: But they will perform so much better than how they have been performing historically. And that's just so fun.
[00:24:23] Speaker B: Well, and I think that also helps with some of the perception of sales, because when you talk to people, I don't want to do sales. I don't. I'm not salesy like, I'm. And when you talk to people and unpack that a bit, it's usually down to either the schmoozing end of the sales process or this idea that you're going to be cold calling a thousand people who don't want to talk to you and having to pitch things at them. But when you talk about and. And that might be true in a transactional world, perhaps more than in. In our world, but when you talk about sales are starting to be exploring and asking questions and building relations and understanding what somebody needs and figuring out how you might have a solution to meet their needs and provide them with support. Well, most of us build relationships all the time. That's right.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: Then it opens this whole thing up to so many more people.
There's another thing, if I may digress.
[00:25:11] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:25:12] Speaker A: With a related point, there's another thing that I think we miss a lot in sales.
And we think that we need more salespeople or we need more sales. And we connect the need for growth to salespeople.
And it's like, I need to grow, therefore I need more salespeople. I need to grow this sales team. And there may be some truth in that, but if we look at it from a CEO perspective, the need is for growth. The need is not necessarily for salespeople.
And there's so much more that relates to growth that is so foundational that the question of whether we need more people or a certain type of salesperson is secondary or tertiary.
So, like, does this make any sense? And should we explore this or should we.
[00:26:04] Speaker B: I think we should keep going. Yes, explore that. Okay. I imagine people are going, well, what else Is there like, surely if I hire more salespeople, I will drive more growth. So what else would I be thinking about, Susan? Like what?
[00:26:13] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. So let me, I'll give you three stories and then I'll just sort of paint a little picture.
So one story CEO wanted to go from 6 million to their next target. Hadn't been able to do for a long time. And they kept hiring, you know, we must need real salespeople.
So they would hire, fire, hire fire, hire fire, and just would go just above, just below, just above, just below that six million dollar number all the time. But that wasn't the thing that was keeping them from growing. What was keeping them from going was that they were not aligned as an organization, as an executive team and as an organization with this is strategically that we need to be going exactly here.
This is the ideal customer that will make us successful and that will take us up. And then what they found out is that it would have been absolutely the wrong thing to hire somebody who's only core competency was sales. They actually, to achieve that goal with that ideal customer, they actually needed people who were subject matter experts, who had a layer of process where they would be able to have a comfortable conversation as a co pilot in that car. And so then they went to 15 million. Right, right. So it, that wasn't the roadblock. The roadblock wasn't bodies.
[00:27:32] Speaker B: It's not the number of people, it's.
[00:27:34] Speaker A: Not the number of people, how the approach aligns, do we have that? And then, you know, here's another example.
We, you know, we want to grow revenue, but so we need more leads, you know, to give to a larger sales team.
But the leads that are coming in are, you know, the wrong leads. Plus the people that are in the sales team don't have the core competency to deliver on that. So we actually structurally need to change what our sales process is and you know, what kind of information, what we do, you know, we need the sales process in place before we decide that we add more people or delete more people. I was probably wasn't all that clear in that example. But it's often, it's often not the solution often isn't a salesperson. It's that there's a foundation we need to fix.
Sometimes it's kind of a culture, like a sales culture.
It's the culture of basing things on fact versus basing things on emotion.
And so what has the buyer done? What has the buyer said, what has the buyer agreed to as a next step, not what you think, not what you said, not what you feel, not what you want. And it's a culture. And then all of a sudden we realize we don't actually need more salespeople. We have a pipeline that we just need to execute on better so that we win more of the opportunities that we have.
[00:28:58] Speaker B: Yeah, well, otherwise, I mean, I'd say this is true for any discipline and organization. You can add people, but if you don't have strategic alignment and if you don't have a core set of principles, you can get away without having necessarily a fully defined methodology and some things. But what are the principles by which we do this? What's our view of how this works? Then you're hiring people who will do it their way, whatever it looks like. Right. And that may not be what you need in that particular part of your.
[00:29:27] Speaker A: That's so true. Yeah, that's so true. Yeah. And usually for the alignment and for that foundation to be in place, you need to have ideal customer, very, very clearly defined in excruciating detail.
Way beyond, just like, way beyond just, you know, sector, his name is, type or size of company, you know, and title, like, way beyond that.
And then we have a process in place so that everybody does things in a way that we have a common language.
And then, like, everybody understands that opportunity is maximum speed, that one's minimum speed. Therefore, we shouldn't be putting resources on that one, but we should be putting resources over here.
You know, no, we're not going to change the product for this because that's a scenic route. We will never be able to sell to them. So it's a common language, and everybody is working together like a machine.
And you put that into a process. And then you overlay your pipeline strategy. Now you have this predictable process and culture and language, and it builds. It also does something else, which is amazing because it builds trust because there's now some transparency, right?
And it's like, is that opportunity going to close?
You know, instead of just taking what the salesperson might say, you know, that it's gone through a rigor, what has changed? How critical is the problem? Do you have a driver? Are all the stakeholders on board? Is that above the line, below the line? Is it alive or is it dead? I'm using some of the language of my own methodology, but all of a sudden there's a rigor to it. And you just ask one question, is it alive or is it dead? And everybody knows you, you know, which one's below the line? Everybody knows. So it's this Transparency. So it's breaking down this idea that sales is only this magic thing that some people can do.
It's actually a process and there is a rigor and it's being well executed and other people have visibility into it and are aligned with it and actually contribute really valuable pieces to it. In, you know, in a conversation I had this morning with a client, all of a sudden for the first time, we're bringing the marketing person fully into the sales process.
And it's not like marketing is over there and like, oh, they're not doing what we want. It's like, no, they're part of the process.
[00:31:45] Speaker B: It's marketing.
We don't have enough leads. It's sales fault. They're not closing the leads. It's marketing's fault. There's not enough.
[00:31:50] Speaker A: Yeah, that's right. And unfortunately, unfortunately, I take away that finger pointing.
[00:31:55] Speaker B: Oh, good, good.
And I think there's so much of what you just said for me that is true for any part of an organization. So whilst you're talking about it from a sales perspective, and I think that's great because I know a lot of organizations having difficulty finding salespeople. So maybe they need to look at what salesperson means a little differently. When you describe that idea of creating methodology around how we do things, I think that's also true for leadership. Now there's, there's so much information out there about leadership. Right. That you could go a thousand different directions. But the organizations that I know that do it well are very clear about what strategically they're trying to accomplish, what the role of the leader is in that, doing that, what the principles of good leadership look like in their organization, how do we serve our people and who are we trying to hire? Like all of those things are essentially defined and then we're finding our own authentic truth within that framework.
Beautiful. I think that applies to loads of different functions in an organization.
[00:32:47] Speaker A: Totally does.
[00:32:47] Speaker B: It's.
[00:32:47] Speaker A: That's really beautiful. And I.
[00:32:49] Speaker B: You're a genius.
[00:32:50] Speaker A: It is.
And I love the expression that you just used that, you know, people are saying we can't find enough salespeople, then we define, we redefine what a salesperson is.
Because if we go back to that 80, 20, 20% of a sales organization will be those intuitive people and maybe we will call those true born salespeople.
You can never make up the sales organization of 100% of that individual for two reasons. Number one, there aren't enough of them and number two, they're impossible to manage and that just that Just introduces way too much chaos and unpredictability and unmeasurability and lack of visibility in your sales organization.
So, you know, just by definition, 80% of the people you need are not going to be that classic definition of a salesperson. And I think the other interesting thing to raise is in how many businesses is the right profile of a salesperson, that classic definition that we have of a salesperson and what is right for your culture, for what you sell, for who you sell to, what is right. And so many of my clients over the years, they have found the right salespeople right. In their organization because they already found them because they fit with the organization first.
And because they fit with the organization, then you can overlay process. You can overlay methadone and make it work.
[00:34:25] Speaker B: We're almost out of time, so thank you so much for choosing to come and spend your very valuable time with me for an hour.
[00:34:31] Speaker A: Oh, this was a pleasure. Thank you.
[00:34:33] Speaker B: I love your wisdom and I soul mate it absolutely. Like, I think there's a lot of alignment between the world we occupy in the way.
[00:34:41] Speaker A: Yes, there is.
[00:34:42] Speaker B: And I think there's lots of things that translate over from the way that you have approached how buyers were by that are also applicable in other parts of the organization into leadership and other things. So I love all of your wisdom.
[00:34:53] Speaker A: So thank you so much for coming on. Thank you, Jess.
[00:34:58] Speaker B: Okay, so this portion, we're going to do the justice, Jess. So the illustrious Roz is, as always, going to ask me question selected from her magic question bag of tricks. I don't know what's coming. We'll see what she gives me, and I'm going to do my best to answer it in a compass, mentors, fashion.
[00:35:14] Speaker C: Okay, wonderful. Thanks, Jess. Well, this week we got another really interesting question that came in the mail bag for you.
Are you ready?
[00:35:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:23] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:35:24] Speaker B: You're supposed to say it didn't sound very. But I didn't know. Yes, I'm ready. I'm ready.
Okay, here it is.
[00:35:30] Speaker C: We're growing and have lots of new people. I'm trying to introduce more structure to our onboarding process because right now it's basically just sink or swim. But a lot of it falls to me and I don't have much time.
Preaching to the choir over here. Any tips on how we can onboard people quickly?
[00:35:47] Speaker B: Oh, okay. So that's not. Not such a tangly one. No one's, like, unhappy in this one, which is good.
So as much as possible. I mean, as much as I'm probably going to wax the wrinkle at some point on this show about technology and people, technology is your friend.
What can you automate? So create checklists. And in fact, if you buy our HR toolkit, we have an onboarding checklist in that toolkit so you don't have to keep remember every time what you're supposed to do every time somebody joins, also a checklist you can give to somebody else. So if there is somebody else you can get to help you out with doing all the nits and bits and pieces. That's great. So I tend to separate between like onboarding and like orientation. So orientation for me is you show up, you got a desk, someone shows you how to find your way around. Where's the coffee machine if you're in an office, in the bathroom, how do you use teams or slack or whatever if you're virtual? And it's kind of the finding your way around peace.
That's all kind of day oney stuff. Most of that can be kind of checklisted to make sure it's done and probably given to somebody else to do. If you're too busy to do it, then there's like onboarding, which is helping the person become proficient as fast as possible in what they're doing. And that takes a little bit longer. And that should be kind of interwoven with a probationary period if you have one. And if you don't, I'd suggest you do so that you're setting somebody up for success. You can still map that stuff out though, right? So if it's three months or six months, you can still map that out. But think about what can you template, what can you do as online learning? So we, for example, we produce overview courses that we host for clients in an online site. So when the client, when the person starts day one, you've got time to spend with them in the morning to get their like CRA paperwork and stuff done. But then you need them to go do something because you've got email you've got to check. You can set them up to do their online courses for a couple of hours. That gives you a chance to go back to work and gives them a chance to still learn without you having to sit there and take them to an endless PowerPoint of information that gets a bit boring for everybody after a while. So I think about, like, what templates can you use, what checklists can you create?
Standard presentations, Online learning, anything that they can kind of do before they show up too, if that's possible. Some people have security reasons you can't do that. But if they can do stuff before they come, then they hit the ground running when they show up.
So that's kind of the nuts and bolts of it. Make sure though, if you do, particularly if you have a probationary period, but even if you don't, but certainly if you do, you need to be having check ins with people regularly. So if that's not you identify who it is. But at the one month mark, the three month mark, and if your probation period goes that long, the kind of five and a half month mark, you need to sit down and talk about how that person is doing relative to what success looks like in the job in order to make it work.
And if you have a legally defined probation period, as it's in their contract, that meeting has to happen before the end of the probationary period. So I've seen some clients go, it's a six month probationary period. So six months and one week I will have the last probation review. No, no, it has to happen at five months and three weeks, not after the end of the probation review period. All right, so. But all those things can have checklists, associated templates, associated elearning and that kind of stuff is really useful. So if you do buy our toolkit, there's a lot of that already in there, like short courses and stuff like Respectful Workplace is already built, but you can also build your own if you've got time.
[00:39:01] Speaker C: Amazing. And people find the toolkit on the E3 website.
[00:39:05] Speaker B: So it's in the process of being built. Supposed to go live in September, but if you want to have anything before then, give us a shout.
[00:39:12] Speaker C: Amazing. Amazing. So reach out and get on the list to be in the know.
[00:39:15] Speaker B: Yes. And I am contemplating. We might. We're going to see whether we put this out. I am contemplating pre selling founder rates. So if you are one of the first 100 people to sign up for the toolkit, you get a lifelong annual subscription price. So that might be something worth considering.
Love it.
[00:39:31] Speaker C: Awesome. Thanks Jess.
[00:39:33] Speaker B: So that's it for today's episode. Hopefully you now have some thoughts on your own onboarding if you're in that situation, trying to make those things easier. I'm not sure we have many clients who feel like they have onboarding nailed. So do check out the toolkit if it's live in September. And we also have a bunch of short courses that are useful for onboarding if those are things you are trying to save some time on. As we know, time is money. So thank you very much for joining me today. And as usual, if you have any comments for questions, suggestions, etc, you can send them through to contact 3ca. Don't forget to follow us on itunes and Spotify, or check out our episodes on our website E3CA.
Next episode, we are joined by the wonderful and super empathetic Chelsea Caldwell Posh, who is an archaeologist and entrepreneur who's going to be talking to us about her philosophy around kindness at work. And sometimes we don't necessarily put kindness in business into the same frame, but she is someone I have met who does it beautifully, so I'm looking forward to learning from her wisdom. I hope I see you there.
